HBOS and OH's card debt

[citizenB]

Hi lexis, those look ok.

 

Just to confirm, Blair Oliver Scott are the Collection agents for both Halifax and Bank of Scotland.

 

Both Halifax and Bank of Scotland are becoming increasingly reliant on the "you have had it now pay it" argument as are Barclaycard. Petulant is the word I would use to describe the tone in their letters.

 

Blair Oliver are usually seen off fairly swiftly should you receive one of their "Notice of Intended Legal Action" letters which they love to send out in respect of disputed accounts.

 

Head any of your letters to these 3 "ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE," I normally colour it in red as well, centred under their address and just before "Dear Sir".. just in case they miss it.

 

You will find they totally ignore any contraversial questions like.. Where is the agreement.. why havent you responded to my official complaint, etc.

 

The most recent letter I received from Halifax, advised me in no uncertain terms that they "were aware they were unable to enforce the agreement, however they were going to continue their normal collection activity".. hmmm.

 

Best you collect any evidence of telephone conversations, letters that arent overly friendly and if they havent responded to your letters favourably within the 7 days. Make a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman.

 

ReallyMadWoman's thread on complaining to the FOS is a really good read and helps out with all the sections these companies are prone to ignore so willingly.

[citizenB]

BTW, I was unable to access the page for your application form.. it was just a blank page, so I was unable to offer any comments on that.

 

 

 

You might like to have a looksee of the reply that RBS sent to Gruff in the following link.. pathetic, really it is. :grin:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/156851-gruff-rbs-cca-request-2.html#post1726992

Edited October 2, 2008 by citizenB

[citizenB]

It's ok, I managed to get in the 2nd time round !. It does look pretty worthless doesnt it. Dont you just love that bit at the top... "Friend for life"... !!

[citizenB]

Well they do write to me more often than my friends:D

 

Can I just clarify the not having to pay them bit... is this actually in a regulation somewhere, or is it just implied as they can't enforce a debt in dispute?

 

TBH, I dont think I can help you with that one. Although on my travels I have seen this question asked and answered. I will have a looksee if I can find a link, I think perhaps it was Magda who asked it so I will have a search through her threads for you.

[citizenB]

Oooh, I like it Lexis. In fact, I might even borrow parts of it. You might want to let the Information Commissioner know of the condition of the packing your documents arrived in.

 

Yes, I would agree that with holding payment is probably more implied than specified. Especially where it states.....

 

"(for clarity, the lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute), under section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 you may not enforce the agreement. This includes, but is not limited to, the following:

You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. "

[citizenB]

Nonono, leave that bit about not demanding payment IN because I think that is acceptable and is used by quite a few of the "in the know" peeps. With regard to the damaged packagine, absolutely complain to both the company AND the Information Commissioners Office.

 

If you feel uncomfortable with the "not demanding payment" then take it out.. The regs do say they are not allowed to enforce which much says the same thing IMHO.

[citizenB]

nice one lexis.. please tell me .. you ARE going to leave the hugs n kisses in arent you:D

[citizenB]

Of course, I like to be friendly:D I might pop a little lippy print kiss on there too for good measure - although seeing as this is meant to be from hubby that may raise an eyebrow or two:lol:

 

Thanks for looking over it for me - I think I'm going to get this printed off and sent, as I have to go and find out how make a Roman Shield now...

 

Should we ask ?? :grin:

[citizenB]

How about 'This letter constitutes your agreement to shave your head and dye your nose blue'?

 

I wonder how many of them would actually do it:D

 

The Roman Shield - isn't it obvious??? I need it for when the doorstep callers drop by. I'm working on my oil pouring machine as we speak...

Just wait until I get hubby to answer the door to them in full Gladiators garb:D If only he looked like Brad Pitt in Troy;) >

 

ps - Have you got a linky for your thread maz?

 

You can click on Maz's avatar you can then see the threads she has going.

 

Hmm, doorstep callers.. I can think of other stuff I would like to dump over them

[citizenB]

Just a little update

 

My son's Roman Shield is all done (he painted it beautifully!) and was handed in today:D

 

I knew you'd all been waiting to hear about it;)

 

Absolutely, Lexis

 

Was this Blair Oliver Scott who telephoned ?. Very strange indeed, but sounds positive.

[citizenB]

lexis, I would make a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office regarding the packaging. Dont waste any more time on that issue with HBOS.

 

You say this is their final response, now is the time to make a formal complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. It will be a long drawn out saga from here, however they will provide you with a reference which should keep BOS and HBOS off your back at least until your complaint has been looked at by the Ombudsman. I guess it doesnt get more "In Dispute" than with the FOS.

 

As for the Notice of Intended court action. You could send BOS a letter along the lines of:

 

HBOS having failed to supply me with information requested has left me with no option but to make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman. Your letter will be passed to the FOS to aid their investigation.

 

You can also send Bankfodder's letter amending it to suit and to include both HBOS and BOS:D The more people who compain to the OFT the better. I sent a copy of the OFT letter to Blair Oliver scott, with a covering note

 

Your letter dated Xx XXX XXXXX was received today, Please find enclosed a copy of a letter I have today sent to the Office of Fair Trading. The letter is self explanatory.

 

The next correspondence I received was from HBOS saying they were looking into my complaint :D

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-protection-unfair-trading/147830-complaint-oft-respect-invalid.html#post1561080

[citizenB]

Thanks CB - as always very helpful:D

 

So to clarify, my plan of action is

 

-Complain to Information Commissioners Office about state of envelope containing S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)

 

Yes, absolutely. Do you still have the envelope ?. If you can get a good photocopy of the damage enclose the copy and wait for the ICO to request the original envelope.

 

-Escalate complaint about CCA to FOS- is this to state non-compliance with the request, or inadequate/illegible/unenforceable information sent?

 

I think here it is a bit of a grey area. I would be more inclined to focus more on the issue that they cant proceed to court action without a compliant copy. Check out ReallyMadWoman's thread, Complaining to the Financial Ombudsman, I am sure she mentions something about that and also quotes the relevant legislation. If you havent got the link, yell and I will find it for you.

 

-Write to BlairOS informing them formal complaint has been made to FOS - do I need to add anything about the timing of the NIP as the complaint was still open so nothing should have been done until it had been completed?

 

Again, you have to let them know that without a compliant copy of the agreement they will encounter problems with court proceedings I am sure there is a sufficiently sarcastic letter floating around, I will have a look for you. Yes, also advise as this is still an ongoing official complaint you are surprised they have taken this route. Also advise you are now making an ofifcial complaint to both the FOS and OFT.

 

 

-Get the letter out to bos and blairos as per bankfodders cracker:D - thanks for pointing me to that one CB!

 

Brilliant isnt it ?

 

Do I also respond to HBOS' final letter? I realise I won't get a response from it, but would it help my cause if there's a letter on file stating the points I've raised in my last post - especially regarding the status of the account and non compliant CCA?

 

This could be a "banging head against brick wall " excercise, but again, Yes. You could respond to their points with your own. Making it quite clear that they havent responded to your complaint to your satisfaction and what action you are now planning on taking.

 

Lastly, I'm guessing from your reply that the NIP isn't too dreadful. Do I do anything other than send the letter telling them the complaint has gone to the FOS, like telling them there's no point in court action without valid CCA, and any action will be considered vexatious etc?

 

Will come back to this one in a minute. I am looking to find my NIP to see exactly what the content is

 

 

 

Sorry for all the questions! I haven't got to this stage with anyone else yet (although I think MBNA are going to be my next FOS letter unless they change pretty quickly), so I'm a bit unsure of myself:oops:

 

Nope, no worries. I have had to ask them as well. Best to be sure of your ground before wading in:)

[citizenB]

Can I just confirm on your Notice of Intended Court Action.. does it say something along the lines of:

 

Formal notice is hereby given that our client has instructed us to commence county court proceedings against you without delay.

 

Papers are now being prepared for commencement of action through your local court to seek a judgement against you.

 

??????????

 

Also have they given you any timescale for a response. ?

[citizenB]

Post 14 in the RMW's link will be particularly useful when making your compalint to the FOS. You might want to read it all though. There is a specific section in post 14 higlighted in red which deals with the lack of a compliant document without which they cant take further action.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/136654-complaining-financial-ombudsman-service.html#post1453433

[citizenB]

Okey dokey.

 

I think RMW has in fact complained to FOS regarding the timescales of Blair Oliver Scott letters so that will be one point to note.

 

Yes, photographs will be ok initially. I am sure if they need to see it FOS will ask for it.

 

I am just going to walk the dog, I will then amend a letter I have and will copy it here for you.. about an hour OK ?

[citizenB]

PLEASE NOTE THIS LETTER HAS BEEN TWEAKED BY X20 IN POST 58 - PLEASE USE THAT VERSION.

 

 

Here you go Lexis, I am going to ask someone to pop in and just give this the once over for you.. so dont go sending it to Blair Oliver just yet

 

 

WARNING:

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 23rd October, this was received on 30th October 2008.

 

You have indicated that

 

a) You are giving Formal Notice that your client has instructed you to commence court proceedings against me without delay and

 

b) Papers are now being prepared for commencement of action through my local court to seek a judgement against me.

 

I am sure that you are aware that I have requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Data Protection Act 1998 (S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)), a copy of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a signatory. To date this has not been provided to me.

 

I am sure you are aware that under S77-79 of the CCA 1974, whilst a creditor is in default of a request they may not take enforcement action, i.e. they are not legally entitled to ask for payment. I therefore contend that your notice is intended to mislead me into believing that you attempting to exploit my lack of knowledge that

(a) you/they are entitled to take enforcement action through the Courts

(b) you/ they are entitled to demand payment

 

Given that this matter is now subject to a potential legal proceeding, you are obliged to provide, under the Civil Procedures Rules, information to ensure that all parties are on an equal footing and also to ensure the claim is dealt with expediently and fairly, avoiding an unnecessary burden to the court's resources.

 

Under the Pre-action Practice Directions - Protocols 4.6 (a) and (d) of the Civil Procedures Rules, I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. Please note that a "true copy" as defined by the Consumer Credit Act will not be acceptable in this case, and a copy of the actual executed agreement, including signature, is required.

 

This information is required within fourteen days from the date of this letter. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to deny me the opportunity to review my position in relation to your claim of alleged breach of agreement and any possible counter-claim.

 

 

Please note that, as you have initiated this action, failure to respond to this letter will place this account in clear dispute and as such you may not:

demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

add any further interest or charges to the account.

pass/sell the account or outstanding balance to any third party.

register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.

issue a default notice related to the account.

Should you ignore any of the above I reserve the right for legal action for redress, and will show the court this letter. I will also report your actions to any authority that I see fit.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION – PROTOCOLS

Edited November 6, 2008 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Thank you lexis

 

I think it is a bit of a lottery really lexis. The document in your first post, isnt enforceable as it stands. If they had something different, I would have thought they would have sent it to you. What would be the point of wasting everyone's time in letters going back and forth unless it is some kind of job creation programme:confused:

 

OH has much the same sequence of events as you. He has received the Notice of Intended Court Action 3 times. At one point it got passed over to a company called APEX, who seemed rather keen to pass it back when they were advised of a dispute:D

 

I sent a similar letter to the one I have posted for you on the last of the 3 from BOS. That was in June, I have since received a letter from HBOS who have said they know they cant enforce legally, but will do so anyway!! I already had a complaint in with the FOS, heaven only knows when they will get around to that, especially as I keep adding to it:p I have sent bankfodder's letter and told Blair Oliver, I will not enter into any further correspondence until they either come up with the agreement or they proceed to court. It is a risk I know, as I dont want OH in court either.

 

One amusing thing came out of the letter, HBOS wrote to me and suggested that if I wanted the information requested then I should do it the correct way and send a CCA request with a £1.00 or a DAP (SAR) request and enclose £10.00. Umm, I already did.. which was why we had arrived at this point ??. Obviously BOS do pass these letters back to HBOS.

 

I sent a pm to x20 earlier on, I am hoping he can pop in and give that letter the once over for you and also to confirm if it is the right way to proceed.

 

Other than that, I really dont know what else to advise.

[citizenB]

Sorry Lexis, I received email notification last night, but havent been able to get on this morning till now.

 

That's great CB. I'll do as you advise and wait to see if x20 has anything to add.

 

I would really prefer someone else does have a look first I would hate to put you on the wrong path.

 

Just reading back over the last few posts, assuming the CPR request letter is the right thing to do, do I send the Bankfodder one to BlairOS too??

 

I would definitely send Bankfodder's letter to the OFT. The idea is to whack these guys from every which way. After all, it is what they do to us.

 

btw - how can they justify sending 3 of these to your other half?? Surely if they send one giving you a week to respond, it kind of makes a mockery of it to send them repeatedly!

 

Hah, I asked myself this question. They send one of their nasties out, I reply telling them.. ok, fine, go ahead sue me (not worried of course cos it is OH's account:-D. They return paperwork to HBOS .. few more rounds with HBOS. They then pass it back to BOS and round and round we go again !!!.

 

Another thought, you could just send the OFT letter and copy it to BOS saying.. in view of your client's reluctance to send me paperwork I have requested, I have now made an official complaint to the OFT.

[citizenB]

Excellent, I'll get onto doing that and see if anything else is added to your post in the meantime. If nothing is said by next week though, I think I'll go ahead and follow with your (very scary) letter - it does seem like a reasonable way to go as it at least might make them do something either way, rather than just this back and forthing!

 

Plus, as with you, it's not my account so why should I worry:D

 

I tamed the letter above down a bit. Mine was a bit more sarcastic:oops:

I think if you dont put them on notice, then you are just going to go round in circles all the time. I am going to take this approach with all of OH's creditors.

[citizenB]

Much appreciated x20.

 

Lexix and maz, you are safe to go now.

[citizenB]

:)X20 beat me to it.

[citizenB]

I do have one other query...

 

I've checked statements going back to '98, and charges with contractual compound interest all but wipes out the balance. I'm wondering if there's anywhere I can go with this?

 

-Can you claim back further than the 6 years - ie to the first charge in '98?

-Could I use this as leverage with them?

-If, as the agreement is not enforceable, I eventually manage one way or another to get the balance reduced to £0, could I then claim back the charges, or is it a one or the other type situation?

 

Thanks again

 

Hiya lexis, I have replied

 

I think there have been people who have managed to get charges beyond 6 years.

 

I guess you could try, see what happens. Complete your spreadsheet for the full amount and see where it takes you. This will also make them aware that you are disputing the balance !

 

This would be a good counterclaim should they decide to go down the court route as you could make a counterclaim in that the balance requested is made up of charges

 

I see x20 has advised that some of this would be subject to limitation so just make out your spreadsheet for 6 years and see how much that comes to.

[citizenB]

Lexis, my action plan would be.

 

Send X20's letter in post 58 and see what happens next.

 

I think your next step will be dictated by their response.

 

It wont do any harm to make up two spreadsheets one for charges for the life of the account to date and one for the 6 years. It will keep you out of mischief if nothing else:D

[citizenB]

Sounds like you have it all under control Lexis..

 

The letter to the OFT, I think if you wanted to you could have incorporated the both in the one letter. I did. However, no problem doing one for each as they could also be 2 separate complaints.

 

Yes, the FOS letter will need time I think. If you follow RMW's format, I dont think you can go wrong.

[citizenB]

Ahh, well I didn't think of putting both in one letter did I:rolleyes:

 

I'll get that amended - at least it'll be one less postage cost to pay; that's fast becoming our major expense through the month. If I have to do another I/E form for anyone I think I'll include that on it:D

 

 

I do believe RMW included the costs of stationary, postage etc in her complaint to the FOS. Obviously you can only include those costs associated with the company you are complaining about.