Phoenix and council tax

[sssammm]

I had a woman run up to my letterbox and put a demand for £469.82 for a council tax payment that a tenant of mine owed for one month £76.00,

apparently he never paid it and the first i knew of it was when i read this letter, i rang the bailiff and he gave it "im a court bailiff", i gave him back, no your not, your a ****** money collector working for phoenix, not a court bailiff.

my points are

1. never received a demand or anything, from the council, bailiffs or anybody.

2. shall i talk to the council and ask what its all about

3. should i complain about this bailiff, obviously inflated fees, as ive had no letters or visits

4. shall i go ahead and do a stat dec as i have never received any bill

 

any help would be appreciated

 

sam

 

ps the bailiff was not the woman who delivered the letter, and she did not knock at the door, just posted and ran

[kermit2482]

On the letter that this lady delivered it would state amount of debt before fees added or at least it should do!!!!! This will tell you the amount of fees added and on a first visit it should only be £24.50 assuming that is that its deffo only a first visit???

[kermit2482]

 

ps the bailiff was not the woman who delivered the letter, and she did not knock at the door, just posted and ran

 

 

How do you know this, im confused

[sssammm]

1.This letter says despite previous requests, i have never had any request at all, from anybody

2. it says arrears owing to lb barnet for ct arrears £469.82 !!! nothing else

the figure is hand written

 

 

sam

[sssammm]

I saw her, i was home at the time

[WWOW]

I had a woman run up to my letterbox and put a demand for £469.82 for a council tax payment that a tenant of mine owed for one month £76.00,

apparently he never paid it and the first i knew of it was when i read this letter, i rang the bailiff and he gave it "im a court bailiff", i gave him back, no your not, your a ****** money collector working for phoenix, not a court bailiff.

 

If the debt belongs to a tenant then you are not liable for the debt. Provided you never open the door to a bailiff (speak through a window) the case will be returned to the council unpaid.

 

The practice of post & run is becoming more commonplace (Equita) and doesn't incur a fee otherwise the firm of bailiffs commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. Only a certificated bailiff can charge a fee prescribed by law.

 

my points are

1. never received a demand or anything, from the council, bailiffs or anybody.

 

If you arent the debtor then you wouldn't receive mail.

 

2. shall i talk to the council and ask what its all about

 

Yes and tell them the debtor doesn't live there and you don't know where he is now.

 

3. should i complain about this bailiff, obviously inflated fees, as ive had no letters or visits

 

Yes you can make an official complaint but you ideally need to know the name of the bailiff.

 

4. shall i go ahead and do a stat dec as i have never received any bill

 

No because you aren't liable.

 

any help would be appreciated

 

sam

 

ps the bailiff was not the woman who delivered the letter, and she did not knock at the door, just posted and ran

 

If the firm charges a fee then she is committing an offence of Assisting a Offender by aiding a firm of bailiffs to commit an offence under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 by seeking to obtain an unlawful money transfer.

[kermit2482]

1.This letter says despite previous requests, i have never had any request at all, from anybody

2. it says arrears owing to lb barnet for ct arrears £469.82 !!! nothing else

the figure is hand written

 

 

sam

 

Hummm this sounds to me like a committal letter which is basicly the 5th stage along, let me explain the structure

 

1 letter from bailiffs outlining liability from Council

2 first visit from bailiff

3 second visit from bailiff

4 van call

5 comittal

 

IF this is the case then the fees are still wrong, the very maximum should be £278.50, write to them asking for a breakdown of their fee structure!!!

[kermit2482]

Hummm this sounds to me like a committal letter which is basicly the 5th stage along, let me explain the structure

 

1 letter from bailiffs outlining liability from Council

2 first visit from bailiff

3 second visit from bailiff

4 van call

5 comittal

 

IF this is the case then the fees are still wrong, the very maximum should be £278.50, write to them asking for a breakdown of their fee structure!!!

 

However as you are the landlord and not the tennant its basicly totally irrelevant!!!

[sssammm]

The tenant moved out 24th Oct, new tenant moved in 25th Oct, but the outgoing tenant told the council they were moving out sept 30th, so i suppose thats why they have tried to get money from me, but geuinely, i have never had any demands of any description come to me before this piece of toilet paper, if i would have had any correspondence i would have dealt with it immediately

sam

[WWOW]

Make a copy of the hand-delivered letter and send it to the council as a Stage 1 complaint.

 

Explain the circumstances as you have here and confirm the tenant vacated the property on September 30. If you get rebuke from the council then escalate the complaint to Stage 2 addressed to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[sssammm]

They told the council they would move out on sept 30th, but didnt, they hung out till 24th oct, therefore no breaks

 

sam

[WWOW]

That's the councils problem. Your still not liable for the debt.

 

The general advice is serving the bailiff an affidavit - a statement sworn before a Commissioner of Oaths (£5-10 fee applies). Make four copies, send one to the bailiff by post, one to the local police, one for your own records and one to hand to the bailiff through a window if he turns up.

 

Never use recorded delivery when serving documents by post - it gives the bailiff an opportunity to decline receipt. PO Box addresses are fine.

 

 

 

 

DECLARATION OF OWNERSHIP

 

 

 

I [NAME] of [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] make this statement knowing that it may be presented to a Court and believing the contents to be true.

 

1. I am the legal tenant of the above-mentioned property and own all its contents and I declare there is no entitlement enabling anyone to change ownership, possession, location, use and enjoyment of my property or deprive me of it for the purposes of using it as leverage for obtaining a money transfer from somebody else.

 

2. I further declare that any bailiff or person seeking a money transfer from somebody else including members of my household may not consider my property and chattels to be prima facie to be the property of, or belonging to somebody else.

 

3. I believe that the facts given in this statement are true.

 

4. This statement will be served on a firm of bailiffs known as [NAME] of [ADDRESS] by ordinary course of post and will be considered good service under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.

 

 

[NAME] _______________________

 

Date__________________________

 

Sworn before me:

 

______________________________

An officer of the Court.

 

 

Cover letter serving affidavit on the bailiff:

 

Name of Bailiffs

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

BY POST AND BY HAND

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME]: Notice of ownership of property

 

Please find the enclosed affidavit for your information.

 

I understand you or your firm of bailiffs has seized, or is intending to seize my property at the above-mentioned address as collateral for an apparent debt belonging to somebody else.

 

Please be advised that any attempt to subvert this notice will automatically result in a Form 4 being filed at the bailiffs certificating court without contacting you further. Both you as a firm and your bailiff may be criminally liable for offences under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 and any criminal aspect of this matter will be passed to the police.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and served on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 and it is now your responsibility and in your own interests this document is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours very truly

 

[YOUR NAME]

cc [NAME OF FORCE] Police

 

 

And send a copy to your local police authority.

 

Name of Police Authority

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Bailiffs and Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006

 

I enclose a copy of an affidavit I have sent to a firm of bailiffs known as [NAME OF BAILIFFS] of [ADDRESS OF BAILIFFS] by even post who threaten to obtain my goods as a lien for somebody else's debt. I understand this commits a criminal offence under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

For the purpose of crime prevention, please assign a reference number to enable CAD to be aware of the circumstances should an emergency arise and proper investigation of criminal activity.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[YOUR NAME]

Enc: copy of affidavit.

 

 

 

If you need to file an official complaint against the bailiff, complete a Form 4 and attach a copy of the above affidavit, and a copy of the document posted through your door and send to the county court Phoenix uses to apply for bailiff certificates.

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

Ask for your costs and affidavit fee. The court should be aware Phoenix are doing hit & run as a 1st visit – that's not allowed and is fraud. Under Name of Bailiff enter - UKNOWN FEMALE. In the Details of Complaint field enter.

 

I was visited by a firm of bailiffs on [DATE] at [TIME] I understand to be [NAME OF BAILIFFS] who posted the attached demand through my door and left the scene driving a small van. The person didn't knock the door or make reasonable effort to contact anyone.

 

The debtor is a former tenant who vacated the property last year and the demand relates to unpaid council tax. I am the owner of the property who witnessed the visit.

 

I understand it is an offence to defraud a debtor with bailiff fees which are not prescribed by law, incorrectly executed and employ the use of uncertificated bailiffs for the purpose of collecting unpaid council tax.

 

I understand the debt is £76 and the bailiffs have added £393.92 as fees. I understand the Firm may be employing a practice of using uncertificated bailiffs to 'hit & run' debtors addresses and qualifying them for the purpose of charging bailiffs fees, and thus, no certificated bailiff becomes liable for defrauding a debtor. In any event, the fees do not appear to be consistent with Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

 

I have tried to reach a resolve with the Firm who became defensive and vexatious in nature.

 

I respectfully ask that I am compensated for my time in clearing up this Firm’s misfeasance and for my efforts in discovery of information.

[sssammm]

will get cracking,

many thanks

 

sam,

[sssammm]

Still getting letters from phoenix, but my charm got me this today...

 

Dear Mr Stockman

With regards to our telephone conversation yesterday, the 14th July 2008 :-

I confirm that your council tax liability from the 30th September to the 25th October 2007 has been removed, and the account has been withdrawn from the bailiffs and deleted by my recovery department.

If you have any queries regarding the above, please contact me again.

Yours sincerely

Matthew Edmunds

Local Taxation Officer, Local Taxation, Resources

 

 

result

[WWOW]

Glad to be of service.

[sssammm]

Thank you all

 

sam