TONKA v MBNA MONEYCLUB

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello M1!

 

I have had three "Agreements" back so far, just holding off posting them as I'm close to getting all of the requests into the first s77-79 request 12 Working Day Default position for either not responding or for sending me the usual rubbish of an Application Form (with no Prescribed Terms), Current 2008 Terms and a Recent Statement.

 

The dilemma is that I know they will all be watching CAG, so I'm just holding off posting more details until I have them in clear Default and each Account into Dispute. I may need to leave some of this off CAG until I have them into the +30 Day Criminal Default.

 

As others have pointed out, it's often not in your own favour to remind these bankers of the Deadlines, let them blow as many as possible, as then you are dealing with each of them already on their back foot. I make no moral judgement here about Debt, this is simply me outlining the Tactics I would recommend for anyone locking horns with a bank.

 

I am starting all of my various battles by firstly establishing what Agreement they hold, if any. Others must adopt an alternative Strategy, depending on their own situation. But I think it is key in most cases to see exactly what Agreement they hold over you.

 

These people are quite capable of looking after themselves, so I have no sympathy for them. Their actions in adopting Tactics such as Telephone Harassment should be remembered by all that these people have to be dealt with firmly, and using any Legal and ethical tool at your disposal.

 

So far, I have Signed Deliveries for my S77-79 requests, then often no proper response from the bankers, then Signed Delivery of me advising them the alleged Account is in Dispute and they are in Default of my s77-79 request. That's two Key Letters nailed down by Date.

 

These are minor victories, but are already showing an Audit Trail that shows the pattern of events clearly. I feel the first step is the 12 Working Day threshold for the s77-79 request. Once that has been nailed, anything nasty that they do thereafter, allows me to point back to my Letters that firmly placed the alleged Account into Dispute and s77-79 Default. Same Letters also makes it clear that without an Agreement, they must stop processing my Data...and also keep reminding them to stop Telephone Harassment too!

 

It won't stop them Defaulting or continuing to leave nasty feedback with Credit Reference Agencies (CRA), and won't stop them Selling an Account to a Debt Collecting Agency (DCA), but it gives me something to use to prove that they should not have done so, and/or were not entitled to Default or Sell the Account (whilst in Default of a s77-79 request).

 

Next Phase after that is to argue the validity or absense of any Agreements, and preferably stretch that out for the next 30 Days to get them into Criminal Default of the original s77-79 request. They know the rules, it's not for me to spell it out for them.

 

I'm keeping the Subject Access Requests (S.A.R.) back at the moment, as these can be fired off when needed. Also, the S.A.R.s will then cover any messing around they do when handling the s77-79 requests, as that will fall within the scope of the S.A.R. and may provide some additional evidence to support any Defence or Attack strategy.

 

These people know the rules, and know the timescales, so they only have themselves to blame if they cannot get their act together within the 12 Working Days + 30 Days limit...with some allowance for Postage.

 

Talking of Postage, be aware that I am sure these bankers push the limits of what they are allowed to get away with. Some Letters are coming in very late, but Dated up to 7-10 Days before Delivery. Some have Postage and Franking Marks that suggest they were only Posted a short while ago, i.e. long after the Date of the Letter.

 

This suggests they are either very inefficient, or may be back-dating some Letters to sneak within a Deadline.

 

My advice therefore is to save all Envelopes from now on, and keep them with the Letters they contained, as it may show a pattern of Letter Date manipulation. In Court, if they say they complied by such and such a Date, I may be able to shoot that down by saying "then how come the Envelope was Franked 3 Days after the Deadline, and the Letter Delivered 2 Days after that?"

 

I do hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Tonka99]

Hi all , postmans been again this time its WARNING written by another head of customer assistance .

i have taken BRW,s advice and now am putting letters and envelopes in the file together as what he says about the timescales is most probably

correct.

will update with whatever comes my way .

 

cheers M1

[Tonka99]

Hi had my MBNA Business monthly statement today here is a list of charges;

 

payment pro cover £26.49

interest fees £1.41

interest cheques £11.56

interest retail £28.06

late payment charge £12.00

overlimet charge £12.00

interest charge adjustment £0.22

late payment fee ajustment £12.00

 

seeing as how i havent used this card for at least 18 months thats some

charges M1

[Tonka99]

Hi guys

had my first CCA back from chester towers this is for a loan taken out

2006

could some really nice person take a look for me

 

 

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/sexeysarms/mbnaloancca2.jpg

 

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/sexeysarms/mbnaloantc.jpg

 

 

thanks to all who have looked for me

 

Cheers M1

[slick132]

Hi M1,

 

Have asked for this to be checked for you.

[Tonka99]

Thanks Slick

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello M1 PLG!

 

Check the Signature Dates as well.

 

Does theirs Pre-Date yours? By that, did it arrive already Signed by them, and Dated before you Signed it.

 

If so, then there may be issues with them needing to send you a Copy of the Agreement and a Cancellation Notice.

 

From the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 63:

 

63.

Duty to supply copy of executed agreement.

— (1) If the unexecuted agreement is presented personally to the debtor or hirer for his signature, and on the occasion when he signs it the document becomes an executed agreement, a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be there and then delivered to him.

 

(2) A copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be given to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement unless—

(a)

subsection (1) applies, or

 

(b)

the unexecuted agreement was sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature and, on the occasion of his signing it, the document became an executed agreement.

 

 

(3) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a copy under subsection (2) must be sent by post.

 

(4) In the case of a credit-token agreement, a copy under subsection (2) need not be given within the seven days following the making of the agreement if it is given before or at the time when the credit-token is given to the debtor.

 

(5) A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

 

From the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 64:

 

64.

Duty to give notice of cancellation rights.

— (1) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a notice in the prescribed form indicating the right of the debtor or hirer to cancel the agreement, how and when that right is exercisable, and the name and address of a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given,—

(a)

must be included in every copy given to the debtor or hirer under section 62 or 63, and

 

(b)

except where section 63(2) applied, must also be sent by post to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement.

 

From the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 127:

 

(4) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) in the case of a cancellable agreement if—

(a)

a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement of the proceedings in which the order is sought, or

 

(b)

section 64(1) was not complied with.

 

 

I believe some MBNA Loans have been shot out of the Water on this, as have other Loans where they pre-signed the Loan and didn't follow up with the Copy of the Agreement and/or a Cancellation Notice.

 

I believe they need to prove they did, and there is some Case Law to support this. Can't find it, but will update if I do.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[steven4064]

Apart from what BRW says, this is a copy of a properly executed agreement

[Fred Bassett]

Apart from what BRW says, this is a copy of a properly executed agreement

 

That must be a first for MBNA then. Probably worth framing. I bet there's something wrong with it.

 

Fred.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Fred!

 

I bet you a Pint there's an issue with the Signature Dates!

 

I suspect this arrived with their Signature and Date already on it.

 

Let's hope so for M1's sake anyway.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[steven4064]

That must be a first for MBNA then. Probably worth framing. I bet there's something wrong with it.

They certainly almost never get credit card agreements right. However this is a fixed-sum loan. They seem generally to be easier to get right for some reason.

[Fred Bassett]

Hello Fred!

 

I bet you a Pint there's an issue with the Signature Dates!

 

I suspect this arrived with their Signature and Date already on it.

 

Let's hope so for M1's sake anyway.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Well I'll accept that bet BRW, but it will have to be a virtual pint unless there's ever a meet in the (now that would be telling) area of England. That's one bet I don't mind losing.

 

All the best.

 

Fred

[Tonka99]

hi BRW FRED & STEVEN

 

in reply to your post

i signed 21.03

They signed 18.03

 

 

In the your right to cancel box it says "once you have signed the agreement you have a short time to cancel it.the creditor will send you exact details of how and when you can do this."

 

well you were right guys i wouldnt have even noticed it

who is buying the beer then

M1

[steven4064]

I think post #9 is a contract at least obliging fred to buy BRW a beer

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello All!

 

I think post #9 is a contract at least obliging fred to buy BRW a beer

 

Perhaps a Mod could have a look, but I think it's got all the right terms, and it's Enforceable. Sorry Fred!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Steven!

 

Ah, I see you are a Mod!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Fred Bassett]

Hello Steven!

 

Ah, I see you are a Mod!

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: MBNA Loan v M1plg

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

With reference to the above account, I request that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

 

Your obligation also extends to providing me with a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order, which represents payment of the statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days from the date of this letter.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Also, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

2. Statement of account

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from BRW and Fred Bassett.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Fred Bassett

[Tonka99]

Hi BRW

sorry about the pint

now what to do i have sent four CCA,s to MBNA this is the only one returned they are now over 12+2 all the others are c/cards, how are

you getting on with them!!!!

 

many thanks for your input you dont seem to miss much , you have got me looking at barcodes postage dates , i even had today a bright yellow

hand addressed letter from Dublin dont know whats going on ,

 

cheers M1

[Tonka99]

Hi Fred

soz i didnt see your post we must have been at the keyboard at the same time .

looking at it now

 

cheers M1

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello All!

 

Wow..back up there!

 

I meant the Agreement for the Pint that Fred owes me!

 

Fred owes me a Pint, and the MBNA Loan Agreement looks OK, but the Dates are backasswards, so that opens up a Can of Worms for the MBNA!

 

Phew, panic over!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Fred Bassett]

Hi M1. Sorry, your post seems to have been hijacked by a bit of Friday night banter. It shouldn't happen really, but you know how it is.

 

On a serious note, I wish you the best of luck. MBNA are not nice people and you will find a lot of support on here. Look out for the pink pig letters. I haven't had one yet. I think you need one to get elevated above the position of 'Classic Account Customer'

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Tonka99]

Thanks Fred

 

well im learning so much on this site my oh calls me QC now !

 

BRW could you pop over to the Lloyds site i have a CCA that needs

looking at

regards M1

[steven4064]

Hello Steven!

 

Ah, I see you are a Mod!

 

Cheers,

BRW

I've been a mod for over a week - do try and keep up

[steven4064]

Fred

 

re post #14 - I don't think it's a criminal offence not to comply with the CCA

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello All!

 

I've been a mod for over a week - do try and keep up

 

Sorry boss! I was day-dreaming! A belated well done!

 

Looks like we may have M1 off to a better start on this one. Looked a bit Doom and Gloom at first sight of that Agreement. But I think the Signature Dates open up a big gap to investigate.

 

I was reading another Thread, and someone was in a similar position, and when they requested their Agreement, MBNA offered them a low 50% approx settlement out of the blue. I can't remember who now, but my interest was alerted, as the same issues may well apply to me.

 

This suggested they knew they had a problem before it was pointed out to them, and were trying to entice a last ditch payment out of the borrower while they still had a chance.

 

I'll try and see which Thread it was, and post a Link here for M1 to investigate further.

 

Ah...I've remembered, it was Davefirewalker. It's something he mentioned in that L-O-N-G thread of his (CCA's and Dave against the world !!!).

 

M1, check that Thread out, the part you need is towards the front. The Thread gets a little detailed later about other issues, and the MBNA Loan issue is mentioned fairly early. It's a Long Thread, and I regret I have not made a note of the exact Post. But I did note what Davefirewalker said:

 

Very strange thing happened this morning.......

 

Out of the blue came a letter from MBNA !

 

they are offering to settle the debt for half the amount owing ???

 

I havent been in contact with them at all other than to request my cca and a full S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

do you think they are worried about anything?

 

Dave

 

Dave doesn't say much more about the MBNA Loan issue after that, so whilst the Thread makes good reading, if you are pressed for time, I can say you can stop reading once you get to the above extract, as after that, Dave's Thread seems to concentrate on other battles.

 

Have a good Weekend all.

 

Now, Fred, about that Pint!

 

Cheers,

BRW