final bill more than quote.

[jowalshy]

Also in order to put the van through a MOT retest, he got someone else to pay for it (why???), and he also said that as his mate runs the MOT station, he managed to squeeze it through the MOT. Does this mean that if my friend took the van to another station, it would fail??????

[jowalshy]

My friend tried to see what the van failed its MOT on by using the link that conniff kindly put on this thread, but unfortunately the new V5c hasn't arrived from DVLC yet and the only ref number he has is the one on the old V5 form, which doesn't work. I told him to phone DVLC to see if they will let him know the ref number.

[Conniff]

OOps

[Conniff]

The mechanic took the van to a MOT station to get it MOT'd.

 

The update so far:-

 

Got a reply to the letter they sent. Chap will not give original VT30 form to them, but said that he was enclosing a copy of it (unfortunately he neglected to enclose it with his letter). He admits that he did quote between £400 and £450, but then went on to say that my friend may have misunderstood him when he said those figures (errrrr, what was there to misunderstand). Also he admits to knowing that my friend did not want to pay more than £500.00, (oh dear, I think that he may have shot himself in the foot there). He will not give a further breakdown as to what time he spent on each thing he did to the van and that the invoice supplied should be enough detail. As for the £300.00 admin costs, he states that this is a percentage of time taken to research how he stands on this matter, travelling around to find a suitable storage facility (storgae facility is just down the road from him) in which to store the van until the dispute is settled, phone calls etc....(I am not entirely satisfied with that response). He then finished the letter to say that he has managed to obtain a form N1 from the court and is now going to proceed with a claim.

 

 

Welcome back Jo

 

A lot of small garages advertise MoT's arranged and take them to a handy station. These usually charge you the full price allowed so to make a bit of profit from it.

 

If your friend wishes to have the documents on the official Vosa forms, he (or you) can go to to any MoT station and quoting the reg No and V5C ref; they will print one out for you for a fee of not more than £10, you do not have to go to the actual testing station used to get this.

 

If he should go ahead and file then this could be in your favour Jo as once that N1 has been filed, he has to send you every single document he will be relying on in his claim to you and at no cost to you. This is to allow you to make a defence and counterclaim.

 

This would likely have substantiated cost paperwork and invoices if he has done his homework properly, and could work in your favour.

 

Make sure you keep that letter and anything further from him in a safe place, and if anyone needs to see it, show them a copy and not the original.

 

It might be a good idea for you to make a log now of all that has happened, conversations and phone calls so that you don't forget anything and will help if he should claim.

 

I assume you will be writing back for the copy of the VT30, ask him at the same time why he decided to do the cambelt without authority as it is not part of the test.

 

Keep on to your friend to ring dvla for that number.

[jowalshy]

I am keeping everything together in a nice neat file ready for court. In my letters I requested info and he has not supplied it. I don;t think that will look very good in the courts eyes.

[jowalshy]

He also stated that he complied with the Sale of good and services act by charging a reasonable fee and spending a reasonable amount of time!!!!!!

[Conniff]

In my letters I requested info and he has not supplied it. I don;t think that will look very good in the courts eyes.

 

If and when he issues and the court contacts you then he has a legal obligation to supply everything he will be relying on in court, so wont be able to refuse then.

 

I wouldn't leave it too long to be served though Jo, if he hasn't submitted within a reasonable time, you can serve one on him.

[Zamzara]

As for the £300.00 admin costs, he states that this is a percentage of time taken to research how he stands on this matter, travelling around to find a suitable storage facility (storgae facility is just down the road from him) in which to store the van until the dispute is settled, phone calls etc....

 

BS.

 

If he doesn't want the costs of storing the van, he has the choice to give it back. Exercising the right of a lien is an option the garage has, but there is no general right to charge for storage or any other costs. And if the dispute is resolved against the garage, they will be liable for compensation as well.

[jowalshy]

Hi Zamzara. Thanks for that. The only problem is that in one of his letters he asked my friend to pay the bill within seven days and that if it wasn't paid he will keep the van in storage and charge my friend for the costs. In the mechanics eyes he seems to think that this is then a contract and therefore he can charge the storage costs as my friend did not pay within the seven days.

[Zamzara]

Merely notifying someone that they will be charged does not constitute a contract. And even if they expressly agree, there would have to be some fresh consideration (benefit) for it to be enforceable.

[jowalshy]

Thanks again Zamzara.

 

Also in the letter he suggested to my friend to pay the bill and then go through the courts and dispute it. The only trouble I see with that is, it is well known that the chap is struggling financially and if my friend pays the bill and even if he wins through the courts, he won't be able to get the money back due to the chap not having any money.

 

My friend phoned DVLA and the new V5C form was sent out on the 16th. he asked if they would give the new ref number over the phone to him, but unfortunately they told him they couldn't do that. Hopefully the form will turn up in the next day or so.

 

I will keep you all posted as and when things happen. Also I will almost definately ask for some help in composing a few letters (if that is ok with you)

[jowalshy]

got the reasons for failing the MOT (thanks conniff for the link earlier in this thread, managed to get V5c No)

 

Nearside Front front brake grabbing severely (3.7.A.2b)

 

Offside Rear rear parking brake recording little or no effort (3.7.A.7a)

 

Nearside Rear rear brake grabbing severely (3.7.A.5b)

 

Nearside Front will not connect seat belt locking mechanism does not secure or release (5.1.B.5a)

 

Centre Front will not connect seat belt locking mechanism does not secure or release (5.1.B.5a)

 

Offside both full length brake pipe excessively corroded (3.6.B.2c)

 

Nearside Front Upper forward bush suspension arm has excessive play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.3)

 

Offside Front Upper forward bush suspension arm has excessive play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.3)

 

Offside Rear rear brake binding (3.7.A.5a)

 

Offside Front inner shim dislodged brake pad locking device insecure (3.5.1k)

 

Service brake efficiency below requirements (3.7.A.)

 

Parking brake efficiency below requirements (3.7.A.9/10)

[Conniff]

Hi Jo

 

So it was just brakes that it failed on and the two seat belt stalks (used).

 

2 x wiper blades

5 x bulbs

1 x timing belt

6 x brake pipe nuts

11 x brake pipe Pere FT (what ever these are)

1 x brake pipe clips

2 x pipe joiners

1 x used seat belt stalk

4 x brake fluid

 

So who gave him the authority to change the wiper blades (not required, not failed), 5 bulbs (not required, not failed on any), timing belt (not only not authorised, but nothing to do with the MoT test).

 

This whole job to be very generous and allow for multiple mugs of tea and a lunch break would easily be accomplished in 1 working day. I know this Jo as I have done it and with plenty of time to spare.

 

I don't suppose you have his mot failure certificate yet? These can be hand written if the printer has failed, (my thinking here is has he added the extra work he is showing as part of the failure).

It would be nice to compare that with what you know before you let him know that you have the actual failure from Vosa.

 

Give him a ring and ask if you can come in and pick up the failure cert.

If he says 'no' then your next move would be to write to him (recorded) and ask who authorised the non MoT repairs and why were they done.

 

I would also use a different type of envelope from the one you used last time so that he will not suspect it is from you and refuse delivery.

 

P.S. I would have charged £381 inclusive of labour which would have included new disc and pads and linings at the rear.

I can't price the suspension bushes.

[jowalshy]

My friend had to go into hospital for a while hence the lack of posting for a while. She is out now, but still not quite with it. I am hopefully going to have a chat with her tomorrow. I will also be having a good look at the latest letter from the mechanic and will post the gist of it up here tomorrow. If poss, could you help me put together a good response?

 

As far as I am aware, she still has not got the cert from the chap although he did say he was enclosing it with the latest letter (not there).

[Conniff]

Oops again

[Conniff]

At this moment Jo, the only way you are going to get the van back is by paying for it and marking the bill (his copy and yours) "Paid under Protest".

You can then start court action to try and recover the excess.

The other way is for you to start court action now and see if the court will reduce the bill.

Either way, you will need an independant engineers report which you will have to pay for. The RAC and AA can arrange these.

I think before you make up your mind which way you want to go, you will need the value of the van. If the monetary value is very low then you could let him take you to court and defend non payment and ask the court to set a resonable bill.

[jowalshy]

Thanks conniff. I have explained this to my friend about paying under protest. Hopefully I will chat to her again tomorrow and go from there.

 

Thanks again for all the help

 

Jo

[jowalshy]

I have the latest letter now and below is a few quotes from it:-

 

"You go on to request that I send you the original VT30: as this document is part of the job for which you are refusing to pay, I feel unable to comply with your request. I have, however, been able to obtain a duplicate copy of this form, and enclose this, in the hope that this will be satisfacory"

 

It wasn't enclosed although it states at the bottom of the letter that it will be included in the copy of the letter which will be sent via post. This chap hand delivers the original letter and then sends a copy of it via recorded delivery. The letter was delivered when my friend was out and is still at the local post office. She will be collecting it later.

The chap then agrees that he said a figure of approx £400 to £450 but this was for a different job. The different job was to take out an engine from a donor van (which was supplied by my friend) and put it into the van which was to be MOT'd. But, and this is a huge BUT, a price was not negotiated for this as the chap was going to receive the bottom part of the donor engine as payment for this. Circumstances changed and the engine swap was not done. The figures of £400 to £450 was quoted AFTER the van had been fixed for an MOT retest, and my friend offered £500!!!!

As for the breakdown of his charges he put:-

"I have kept the same records as for all of the 'project' vehicles on which I have worked. These records are in the form of 'hours spent' on a day to day basis, as per invoice 095"

 

basically he is saying the invoice showing the breakdown of what he has charged is all we can have.

He goes on to say about the additional labour etc he added on to the original invoice:-

You pointed out to me that I had ommitted the seat belt stalk on the first invoice: I felt that you became rude and aggresive towards me during that conversation, and consequebtly decided to include this item and the final two hours labour, which was spent in finishing off the brake pipes, bleeding the brakes and of course removing a rear wheel stud from the donor van to replace a stripped original"

 

I'm not a mechanic, but surely this would not take 2 hours to do. But then again what do I know.

Also the van falied its MOT on 20th September and then retested on 16th October. Why was there such a long gap between these dates????? His invoice is dated 6th October for work carried out between 18th September and 13th October???? sorry I am beginning to rant a bit.

As for the breakdown of his admin charge of £300, he says:-

"The invoice in question is made up of a percentage of time spent researching the subject, some consideration was given to the cost of telephone calls, the time and cost of travelling to speak personally to people with the expertise to advise me, and the time spent in finding a secure placement for the vehicle in a holding facility, and then transporting it there"

 

Even at his hourly rate of £18 per hour this would have taken him 16.5 hours. 2 days. Surely it doesn't take that long to speak to someone at trading standards (of which he claims to have spoken to, giving a name and reference number of the person he spoke to), also the holding facility is just down the road from him!!!! If he is only charging a percentage of his hourly rate, say £9 per hour, this would mean he took 4 days!!!!!!!

The chap's final paragraph just informs my friend that he has now got an N1 and is completing it forthwith without further notice.

Please help Conniff. I have done a draft response and will PM it to you (as I think that this post is long enough now)

[Conniff]

This seems to be getting more complicated as more details come to light.

 

You must make a list and full timetable of event, phonecalls and conversations with dates and times as much as your friends can remember, this should be from the first contact with the garage right up to the issue of the invoice.

You will need this anyway in your defence if he should start proceedings, so it is a good idea to get it done now so we can see exactly what has taken place.

 

You cannot go forward without this and then you will be in a better position to demand a complete breakdown. He will have to furnish this to you anyway should he submit the N1.

 

There is no mention of the suspension failures (parts or labour) in his invoice, why not?

 

Your letter needs to address the missing MoT items not included in the invoice and an explanation of why unauthorised items such as the cambelt and extra items such as the bulbs were included when they had not failed.

 

I think you need to instill on your friends the timefactor and they need the letter being held in the post office asap.

 

Once you have that letter we can then move on.

[jowalshy]

I will pass this on to my friend first thing in the morning. she had a nasty operation the other day, so she probably wont be up now. I will also try and persuade her to join CAG in order to fill in any blanks.

[Conniff]

I'm sorry your friend isn't on top of the world right now and I hope she recovers swiftly.

 

It would be a lot easier to have direct answers rather than through a third party so it would be great if she could come on in person, anyway, what better way can you think of than passing the time on cag.

[jowalshy]

I have e-mailed the link to her and him, and also told them about you and how much help you have been so far. Hopefully they will come and join up soon.

[jowalshy]

Received a reply, at last, to the last letter my friend sent. It looks like the mechanic hasn't as yet gone through with the court claim. I haven't got the letter yet, my friend is going to post it to me. I should have it by Saturday so I will post up his response then. The mechanic did enclose with the letter a new invoice for admin costs, and this time he broke down the fee. The total invoice is for £50.00 of which is £4.30 for postage, 34 minutes in phone calls (to whom I don't know) and 16 hours to compose the letter (which is just over 3 pages long)!!!!!

[jowalshy]

Just got the letter from my friend.

 

basically he is denying the fact that he verbally qouted around £450 - £500 to put the van through the MOT.

 

He addressed some obvious MOT failure points prior to putting the van through the MOT. But according to the original invoice, and if it was complied on a cronological order, he spent a total of 8.5 hours just doing the windscreen wiper blades and a few bulbs.

 

 

 

He is asking for copies of quotes from other garages. Hopefully my friend will get some as she now has a copy of the VT30.

 

The fee for the brake pads of £80.97, he has explained that yes my friend did supply the pads but unfortunately they did not come with shims.

 

He will not elaborate any further regarding the invoice for admin £300.00. He just states that this is for time and postage.

 

he also qoutes:-

 

"At this stage of dispute I feel it would have been far more constructive of you to have offered some real evidence of my charges being "unreasonable", rather than acting in much the same way as the "prosecution" would if you were bringing a case against me after paying the bill"

 

"As you are probably aware by now, it is the prosecutions responsibility to make available to the defence the case against them, so that they may compile a defence of the case should they so wish. I will be fulfilling all my responsibilities in this matter at the appropriate time"

 

he then goes on to say:-

 

"To date I have spent significantly more time dealing with your refusal to pay than I did actually working on the van, over the past 6 weeks or so our dispute has probably consumed the best part of 100 hours of my time, whilst I don't have minute by minute accounts for all of the time spent I am aware of how long replying to all correspondance has taken."

[Conniff]

You said that in his last letter he admitted quoting a price -

He admits that he did quote between £400 and £450,

 

So he seems to be not remembering what he has and has not said to you.

 

Have you got your friend to write a list with dates and times of what happened and was said in the order that they occured?

 

You haven't made any comment about the 'cam belt change' and why he did this.

 

He may not have a minute by minute account of what the time composed of for the admin charge, but will have to if he goes to court.

 

He can't add on things done for research, that is included in 'costs' and something that is awarded by a court.

 

If they want this van back Jo, they need to write and ask if he is prepared to come to a fair agreement for his bill. If he is not then I think you will have to send him a letter before action and start court proceedings yourselves, but before this you must chronical everything.

 

Before doing anything though, your friends should visit with a mechanic and see exactly what work he is claiming to have done has acturally been done, especially the cam belt. If he has not done work he is billing, then you can work out the bill again with him, he may just be a bit more understanding.

 

"As you are probably aware by now, it is the prosecutions responsibility to make available to the defence the case against them, so that they may compile a defence of the case should they so wish. I will be fulfilling all my responsibilities in this matter at the appropriate time"

 

This bit is bunk as you are not in a court, but you can get some quotes from other garages to help you one way or the other.

 

It's a bit hard to work all this out without the full story, there is mention of another van for a donor engine etc; but you're saying that this is all for the MoT of the van. There should be two bills if this is the case as he mentions 'for another job'.