Hi, Scampjet, CL filed a claim against me recently but it was struck out because they couldn't be bothered filing their allocation questionnaire! And from what I've read on other threads, they are rapidly losing the plot as regards winning any CCjs against people who are prepared to defend!! I think you are right not to sign anything. The fact they think you might sign such a weak document implies that their whole argument is weak. It's the last feeble throw of their poisonous dice, it seems to me. What's more, I reckon the judge will murder them for the way they have acted, i.e. pursuing you or a debt that is already being paid back under CCCS - It may be that Cl realise this and are backtracking to save face. Do they really want this to end up in court? Don't think so . . ! BAE

Seems like it was a stalemate, then Car, but superb effort, mate. Once again MONEY overrides the overriding objectives, eh? Good luck with the bid to "go national" on this - at this stage, bad publicity in the media is probably the only thing that O2 are scared of, (the court's certainly can't stop them, sadly). BAE

Hi, Bitofapickle, Read the thread and it's great to see you're getting plenty of good advice. Just popped in to say good luck for tomorrow, really, and one or two points occurred to me: 1. Remember Master Woody's excellent advice about preparing an answer for when the judge asks something like, "How do you intend to pay this debt?" Practise your answer several times in front of a mirror - sounds daft but it'll be second nature when you're in court! 2. Regarding your defence, you say you've claimed back charges, but are you positive that ALL charges and interest has been refunded? I made several claims on the same creditor when I discovered new charges I hadn't originally listed - and got them refunded no problem, along with contractual interest which can massively increase your claim. And don't forget to go further than 6 years back if necessary to find those missing charges. This strategy also lends more weight to your argument that there is no debt, as they could owe you more than you (allegedly) owe them! If you're not sure if you claimed all the relevant charges back, it would be reasonable to tell the judge that you believe the value of their unlawful charges may be more than the value of the claim. BAE

Hi, Suzby, Regarding opening a bank acount, have you tried the Nat West step account? Lots of people on here have said you can open one without much hassle, (ie credit checks). It's a standard account with no frills and a basic cash card, no o/d facilities, maybe a cheque book. You can apply online, then they send you the completed form to fill in. I did that and I've just sent the form back. So far, so good. BAE

Could This Be The First Ever Credit Card Company to Disclose Their True Costs in Court??? Mmm, sounds dramatic but I'm sure they'll wrangle a way out. Basically, there has been a new, favourable development. The court has sent me an order saying that my claim stands, (hurray!), but the defendant has to amend their defence! The judge is still not happy that they are not dealing with the charges I have listed, and wants them to do an amended defence which deals 'specifically' with the charges. I'm chuffed because the judge is taking my side at the mo' and the Draft Directions I have offered the court have been used twice, now, (albeit with the judge's own wording). Plus the defendant has been given a slap on the wrist for not properly complying with the first order! So, the defendant has 2 weeks to respond with the amended defence or risk the whole defence being struck out. Will they disclose their true costs or not? (WHFO, I reckon!) BAE

This part of the judge's statement is the one that is confusing. Why has he said "4 corners" of the agreement? Surely an agreement of 2 pages would contain 8 corners? A 3 page agreement would have 12 corners, and so on . . .! Pedantic, maybe, but it could be argued, therefore, that the "4 corners" mean "a single page," which would have to contain the prescribed terms. I think it would give you a basis to defend a claim, if the precribed terms are not on the page of your signature - not saying you'd win, but you'd have an argument. BAE

Hi again, As you've not put your claim in yet, you're okay to add contractual interest if you wish. Some people prefer not to do this as they feel it may work against them and make it harder to justify and win the case in court, (though it's hardly likely to ever get there!). Basically, there are conflicting arguments - some add contractual interest, some don't! As far as I'm concerned, in my last 3 claims, against cc companies, I have asked for contractual interest. In all 3 cases they paid up the full amount, (but only after I had made a court claim). By the way, who is your claim against? My successful contractual interest claims were against RBS, MBNA and the Co-Op. BAE

Hi, Penfold, Have you heard if they will accept your offer of settlement, today being their last chance? If not, don't forget that you could also ask for the info you require at the AQ stage, by putting in a Draft Order for Directions. No guarantee it will come off, but it costs nothing. BAE

Hi, Foolishgirl, Not sure if a judge would give permission to vary the Particulars on a Claim,but - even if you could - it would not be a good idea at this stage. It may even strengthen the defendant's position because your original claim would be, by your admission, incorrect. I would leave things as they are, stick to your guns, and keep saying no to any offers of settlement that are below the amount of your claim. You'll find that they will settle for the full amount once the court date looms. Plus, there's nothing stopping you doing a second claim for the contractual interest at a later stage, (though your chance of success will certainly be reduced and I, for one, wouldn't bother). BAE

Oops - just saw Daarab got there first with what could be an even better letter! BAE:)

hi, Jennier, It's unbelievable what these companies will do to force payment from you. Talking about a Walking Possession when they don't even have a court judgement against you!!! Basically, if they've not been to court to get a judgement against you, then bailiffs are about as close to knocking on your door as I am!! Take a deep breath, stay calm and listen to the advice the people on this site will give you. I was in a position only two years ago with creditors calling and harassing every day for debts of over £80,000! Now I know my rights and I'm in control, they've mostly given up and left me alone. So however bad you think your situation is don't worry, you will beat this! Now, you asked about them not even having an agreement? Hallelujah!!! No agreement = no enforceable debt. The first thing I would do is to ask them to produce the said agreement. if they can't within 12 days, you can stop paying them ANYTHING because they are in default of the law. Then we'll take it from there This is the letter to send, with a postal order for £1. Dear Sir/Madam Re:− Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412 With reference to the above agreement, we would be grateful if you would send us a copy of this credit agreement. We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), we are entitled to receive a copy of our credit agreement on request. We enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. We understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days. We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act. We look forward to hearing from you. Yours faithfully Mr A N Other Oh yes, Jennnier, and read, read, read the threads on this site, along with the FAQs. After all, knowledge is Power . . . Good luck. BAE

Hi, Jennier, Have you received a County Court Judgement, (CCJ) for this debt? BAE

Done in 2 ticks. BAE

Hi, Penfold Have sent you my letter and draft directions - hope you can get something from them! Actually, I reckon you will stand a better chance than me to get their defence struck out; in my case I am arguing that they have not complied with a court direction properly but they will argue they have complied - but in your case, so long as they don't get their defence in by tomorrow, the defendant has definitely NOT complied. At the end of the day, a letter only costs a few pence to send - it's not like you're making an official application to the court, (which costs money) - so it is worth trying!!! BAE:)

Thanks Bankfodder. As you can see from the first page of this thread there were a few different views flying about regarding when to apply for enforcement! What's obvious to me now is that it made no difference that I waited the 28 days before enforcing - they still achieved the set aside, which was pretty much guaranteed. However, I'm hoping that the 28 days I waited will show the judge my reasonableness, i.e. I gave the defendant plenty of time to settle their debt etc. At the moment, it's a stalemate. with both sides attempting to strike out the other's claim / defence. In my recent letter to the judge I asked politely that the defendant be ordered to disclose their fees. I know they won't but I'm hoping a court order will at least force them to negotiate . . . BAE

Thanks, Citizen B. I suppose it's up to the FOS to decide what regs they have broken. . In fact, it may overcomplicate matters if I start quoting laws etc, so a simple 'this is what has occurred' statement is probably as good as any. I will put the complaint in and see what happens. Cheers. BAE

Have they complied or not??? Well, last week, I received a bundle of info from their solicitors, (FINALLY - SO THEY DO EXIST!!!) - the defence of the cc company, various statements of my account and a covering letter asking for the judge to strike out my claim as it has no chance of success! Basically, they're saying that they've already paid way above the charges and interest debited, through 'goodwill payments' they have sent for my two previous claims... Well, I DON'T consider sending the above as complying with the judge's orders, which were, in a nutshell, that they must deal 'specifically' with the charges I outlined . . . they haven't. Therefore, I have sent a polite letter asking the judge to strike out their defence on the grounds of non - compliance of court orders. Just to be extra - nice, I have included a further alternative Draft Direction, which states that if they don't comply with the original order within 7 days, the judgement will be awarded to the claimant. Phoned the court today and they told me that everything is with the judge for consideration . . . no idea if my tactics will work but, 'in for a penny . . .' BAE

Hi, Don't know if this question is a bit convoluted but here goes. About a year ago my mortgage company successfully defended a court case against me regarding MPI. They gained summary judgement and were awarded court costs - fair enough. But last month I realised that they had made these costs into arrears instead of adding them to the mortgage (which is what the judge ordered). When I informed them they rectified the mistake, (and admitted it by letter). My complaint is that these imaginary 'arrears' have been registered on my credit file for almost a year. I am planning to make a complaint to the FOS and need to know what laws / regulations govern this sort of error. Anyone know? BAE

Hi, Robcag, You seem to have most bases covered - go or it! . . .and good luck! BAE

Well done Penfold! Sounds like you did a superb job in that court room - and had fun! As I know only too well, getting the set aside is almost a formality, but the experience you now have is invaluable. Loved the fact that the judge is giving them only 7 days to produce a defence, by the way! And too right that the judge got annoyed with their lack of response to your claim. All in all, a good result, I'd say. As for your offer, I think a lot of us would do the same to avoid any more hearings and hassle. Plus, if they don't reply positively, it adds more weight to your argument that you have tried every avenue to get this resolved. One thing's for sure, as soon as that 7 days is up, (providing you don't hear from them, of course), get on the phone to the court manager demanding judgement against them!!! Cheers, BAE

Hi, Robcag, I've been in the position of applying for a set aside and I think that the more arguments you can put across, the better the chance you have. The biggest problem you have is that you originally admitted the debt, (albeit without the collection charge) - so you need to have a strong argument and evidence prepared to the effect that you were 'pressured' / bamboozled / mislead into the admittance etc. and the true debt was concealed by the cc company, whose word, which you took to be true at the time, you have now found out was toal cobblers!! If you can be specific, by giving times of phone calls, letters which demonstrate the poor behaviour of the cc company, etc, then you will have some chance. Below is the bones of a statement that I was helped with, using the standard 'Lack of CCA', Unlawful Charges and Improper Default Notice arguments -you may be able to use some ideas from it and add to to fit your circumstances: Now that I understand my rights, and also the duties of the claimant, I deny that there has been any failure to make payment in accordance with the alleged contract. Lack of Credit Agreement 1. The Claimant has failed to produced a copy of a properly executed credit agreement and in the absence of such an agreement, which conforms to sections 60 and 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, I aver that no agreement has ever existed for there to have been any failure to make said payment.(Give details of your CCA requests etc.) Improper Default Notice 2. It is denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant. (You will need to put the details of their so called Default Notice and why it does not comply, here) 3. Moreover, I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach. If the claimant sent a default notice that includes unlawful charges, this default notice is invalid under English law for the reason that it is inaccurate and so the claimant may not seek to enforce this debt. Unlawful Charges 4. In respect of that which is denied, during the period in which the Account was operating the claimant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The defendant understands that the claimant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant. I contend that: a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the claimant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the claimant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the defendant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Claimant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. b) The contractual provision that permits the Claimant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) and the common law. 5. Accordingly I put the Claimant to strict proof that every charge and collection charge made to the account was valid and lawful. I aver that any default notice sent would have included these charges. Cheers, BAE

Hi, Car, Just skimmed through the last few pages and can't believe how O2 are still sticking to their defence! They're obviously trying to hoodwink the judge with any banal argument they can muster, it seems to me. Do you know if their 'Witness,' Ian Roy, will be atending on Friday? Have they asked you to sign anything that says you accept his statement and he need not attend? If not, why not phone O2 and ask that their star witness attend in person? I'm thinking aloud here but surely you should have the right to ask the judge to question someone who has questioned your motives in such an impolite and cack handed manner? If they refuse to let him attend, might they be breaking any court rules? At the least, you could tell the court of his refusal to attend . . . And anyway, what about your rights to privacy? They've invaded your blog without permission and are making all sorts of assumptions about you! Sounds bizarre. Lots of luck, by the way! BAE

Hi, I agree that anything you can find out about how the Deed of Assignment should work,(and possibly how it has been misused), will be of help. You may ending up more knowledgeable than the judge on the matter (!) and must bring any relevant Acts, Precedents etc to his attention. This will show that you have acted in good faith and have a reasonable case. Good luck with it. BAE

Hi, Manchester1, It will be prudent to present as many arguments as possible to the judge as to why the ccj should be set aside. It only takes one of your reasons to work! I managed to get a ccj set aside against RBS, (with the help of some excellent people on this site), and many more on CAG have achieved them. All you have to do is convince the judge that you would stand a reasonable chance of defending the claim if it is set aside, (and convince him/her that you have acted swiftly since you received the ccj)!!! Anyway, stay positive! Possible arguments you could include in your statement: An unenforceable credit agreement / failure to supply given CCA Counter claim of unlawful penalty charges. Lack of default notice Lack of Notice of Assignment Also, here's some advice / pointers I received and used successfully in my statement, which you may be able to adapt to fit your circumstances. 1. On the DATE, a request was made under section 78-79, of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, to obtain a copy of a credit agreement that the alleged debt refers to. It was sent by DELIVERY METHOD to the Claimant’s Solicitors, with the statutory £1.00 fee enclosed. It was received on the DATE, which gave the Claimant twelve working days from receipt of the request, to provide said document, which is stipulated in Regulation 2 of The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983. The claimant has not provided this document. Accordingly, having failed to produce a credit agreement within the requisite timescale or at all, the Claimants are in default of said request under section 78(6)(a) or 79(6)(a) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. 2. I deny that there has been any failure to make payment in accordance with the alleged contract. The Claimant has failed to produced a copy of a properly executed credit agreement and in the absence of such an agreement, which conforms to sections 60 and 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, I avers that no agreement has ever existed for there to have been any failure to make said payment. 3. It is denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant. 4. In respect of that which is denied, during the period in which the Account was operating the claimant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The defendant understands that the claimant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant. 5. I contend that: a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the claimant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the claimant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the defendant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Claimant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. b) The contractual provision that permits the Claimant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) and the common law. 6. Accordingly I put the Claimant to strict proof that every charge and collection charge made to the account was valid and lawful. I aver that any default notice sent would have included these charges. 7. I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach. If the claimant sent a default notice that includes unlawful charges, this default notice is invalid under English law for the reason that it is inaccurate and so the claimant may not seek to enforce this debt. 8. Further, the claimant states that I have refused to pay sums due under agreement. In its particulars of claim, it has not explained under what terms of any agreement these sums were due and I put the claimant to strict proof that said monies are due. Cheers, BAE

Is that no what I said Yeah, but you can type faster than me . . . BAE