Could it be that Barclay's are not the ultimate keeper in due course of the promissory note? Ask them, stir it up a bit.... even write to the CEO ask him if they are the keeper in due course of your promissory note. You have nothing to fear but fear itself.... False Evidence Appearing Real. Okay, so wassit all about.... think of sub prime mortgage contracts in the US, those mortgage loan agreements were parcelled up into bundles and sold to wealthy investment "funds - investors - other banks - pension funds et al" ... $billions worth and as the people who bought the houses defaulted when their low start interest mortgages began to achieve full status and interest rates started to rise, they walked away having paid no deposit in the first place - nothing to lose.... with no interest nor capital repayment being paid on those contracts, they became worthless junk..... the investors had been well and truly suckered.... all planned years ago by the international banking cartel. The loan applications are no different - all part of 'paper trading' where the elite and the priviledged grow even richer and more powerful. It's all a game, a revolting ruthless game and if you mention this knowledge to your bank manager he may well ask you to leave the branch and close your account.... it has happened. John Kennedy tried to stop it and was assasinated, so did Lincoln. Quck Ref; Google "Time line of the Rothschilds"... make your bolood boil. There is nothing on this earth nor any law to stop the Prime Minister or the President or any national leader, wherever there is a Central Bank (the Fed - Bank of England etc) from ordering The Treasury (in our case HM Treasury) to issue as much debt free money as is needed to pay off debt, then there'd be no need to pay income tax. Same everywhere wherever there is a central bank and where there is not, the banksters scheme and plot to open them and that is when a nation becomes a nation of slaves... working to pay the interest on the loans from the central banks... all of which are privately owned by a small group of international bankers, mostly in America, but led by one English banker. Wars, inflation, deflation, good times, bad times, all carefully planned. charlie

They say they are not allowed to send copy agreements in the post? Rubbish. They have lost it? Rubbish... They sold it.

But will it help the uk?

Good day GODLY HOUND DOG... I trust you are well and still in Seine? Seems to me the DCA's are hell bent on on having our friend Birdie telephone them.... free phone too.... could this be because they want to place him in contract? Tip.... you are taken to court, court clerk asks you to confirm your name.... if you confirm your name you are in contract and under the jurisdition of the court.. Your answer might be.... Sir - Madam, Your Honour, m'lud... if I tell you my name will I enter into contract with you? This will upset the whole procedure for if you do not confirm your name you do not enter the jurisdiction of the court and you may well be physically ejected from the court. Of course, you have to be pretty brave to do this, but, it is being used as more and more people, through the internet come to realise that the law is not what it seems - indeed, very little is what it seems to be. Do you know there are certain court papers that you would use when being taken to court that , if filled in slightly differently to the way they expect, will opt-out of their jurisdiction - yet another chance of winning. Again, it's a brave fella who tries, so it needs some study first to understand the subject.... whose law do you live by, their law, or our law? Our law, Common Law, has been around a lot longer than theirs which keeps changing with greater regularity than ever before since this bunch of mentally deranged half wits took over in 1997. There are people, just ordinary people out there who are busy finding out, many of them are far smarter than the lawyers, bankers and debt collectors. Knowledge is power, "seek and ye shall find" .... on the internet. Charlie*

I have seen several money systems that could be considered.... but not until enough slaves discover the truth and rebel... en masse. Politicians in the know won't do it - look what happened to Pres Lincoln, Pres Garfield and.... John F Kennedy. As the banksters said... (not verbatim) 'these people and others who help us keep our [problem] going will be so pleased with the favours we bestow upon them, even if they learn the truth, will not make any complaint... and the masses, the slaves who pay us usury on all the money we give them will bear this burden forever for they will know no better'. Was it Henry Ford or Stonewall Jackson who said, words to the effect.... 'if the masses ever discover what was happening in their name, there would be a revolution overnight'. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER BUT, hey-up, the system may be cracking.... the guaranteed defined benefits pension schemes that ALL banks give/gave their employees are, one by one, being shut down in favour of money purchase schemes which carry NO guarantees. They will not be happy as the full meaning filters down the ranks. Maybe tho they will begin to stir - especially as they're not very well paid in the lower and middle ranks anyway - but had looked forward to a comfortable retirement. My neighbour right opposite was a Nat West manager, he's 84 now and healthy... he doesn't have a care in the world. charlie*

I have seen several money systems that could be considered.... but not until enough slaves discover the truth and rebel... en masse. Politicians in the know won't do it - look what happened to Pres Lincoln, Pres Garfield and.... John F Kennedy. As the banksters said... (not verbatim) 'these people and others who help us keep our [problem] going will be so pleased with the favours we bestow upon them, even if they learn the truth, will not make any complaint... and the masses, the slaves who pay us usury on all the money we give them will bear this burden forever for they will know no better'. Was it Henry Ford or Stonewall Jackson who said, words to the effect.... 'if the masses ever discover what was happening in their name, there would be a revolution overnight'. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER BUT, hey-up, the system may be cracking.... the guaranteed defined benefits pension schemes that ALL banks give/gave their employees are, one by one, being shut down in favour of money purchase schemes which carry NO guarantees. They will not be happy as the full meaning filters down the ranks. Maybe tho they will begin to stir - especially as they're not very well paid in the lower and middle ranks anyway - but had looked forward to a comfortable retirement. My neighbour right opposite was a Nat West manager, he's 84 now and healthy... he doesn't have a care in the world. charlie*

The Federal Reserve, Chicago branch published a book which explains how the fractional monetary system works - can't recall the title, easy to find tho. Use google. For doubters, many years ago Amschel (Bauer) now Rothschild stated 'allow me to issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws'. They knew that whoever controls the money controls everything, The White House, Downing street, even our dogs and cats.... even our houses.... they're on lease only. It stood good then and still does... so, check out the history of the Rothschild family (it was Bauer, the old man was a money changer in the Frankfurt ghetto) .... he had a sign outside his shop/house a red shield.... and the German for that is Rot Schild .... it became Rothschild. Doubters? why did Woodrow Wilson state... after signing the Federal Reserve Act in late 1913.... 'I fear I have betrayed my country'. Why will banks rarely take debtors to court... especially those who show a knowledge of the subject? Thanks to the internet, the world is waking up to the chicanery of these international banksters who own everything.... and make no mistake, whatever they say.... the Rothschilds still have total control over the Bank of England - and the City, the other Crown is theirs too. Can any doubter explain to me where the money comes from when a bank agrees to make a loan? It is nothing more than a drop of ink and a promise to pay. That little formula equals 'enslavement of the masses to maintain their hold over us all' Do you really think they have a big cellar stuffed with £20 notes? You can prove this another way... when I was young you could take a £5 note (one of the big white ones) into the Bank of England and ask to cash it in.... in return for the note they would give you either £5 worth of silver or £5 worth of gold. If you take a £20 note to the Bank of England today, they will merely give you another one. But if you take it to a High Street bank, they'll look at you as though you're a bloody idiot - today's money has no backing. Get with it, there really ain't no money - it's all a fiction. Study and all will be revealed. charlie*

bump just gotta do something

Don't forget they probably won't have the original because it will have been traded in the 'bank paper' market - part of a 'bundle'. Remember, this credit crisis was triggered by the US sub-prime mortgage frenzy of a few years ago... we had it here to a degree as well.. like 125% mortgages etcetera... Those mortgage loan agreements were no different to the apps/agreements/contracts we sign for loans... these contracts, £billions of em were packed into 'parcels' and sold to investors who weren't too fussy about where their profit came from. All these contracts were backed up by people signatures and security over property... then things went haywire.... low start mortgages matured into interest payment mortgages in stages until the homeowners could not pay their dues... then they just walked away and this devaluation escalated and now we have what we have. Of course, those greedy bastards who planned it all walked away with $billions in their pockets... knowing esxactly what would happen. Your loan - credit agreement is just the same - no different except it's unsecured so the yield for the buyers won't be quite so high.... and now they are sufferening because WE, in other countries too have got the measure and we are starting to fight back. If you can force a situation where the bank is instructed to produce the original, then you will win - the creditor will go right to the court door and then withdraw at the last moment. Research is needed to satisfy yourself. Just to give you an idea of how sick these banks are, I was talking to a new friend today... he's the Fin Dir of a IVA - debt company... he told me about a well known bank that loaned a huge sum of 'credit' to an 85 year old man with a state pension. They were able to kill the debt on threat of taking it to the media. They lost money - but what the hell, he said, it's not always about money. charlie*

alfwithhair... where did you see it, can you send details of where to go. Thanks, charlie* PS: you can't see how it works because you do not have this special knowledge or insight. You need to know how banks operate - their innermost secrets.. like where does all the money come from PPS, I've got hair too... well some - just enough

bump 'cos I have 4 sainsbury's agreements to sort for my family. Funny thing is, some of them are nowhere near the same in design yet they were all taken out around the same time... July through November 2004. Tesco, Mint, MBNA even Barclay's, oh and Goldfish seem relatively simple to analyse, but NOT Sainsbury's. Seems that bloody grocer knew what he was at. The more I read about them the more suspiscious I get. Perhaps we need a separate subject area for them. charlie*

Preeee..cisely

I have studied the application form and the following page, the terms of use etc.... I don't know whether it's meaningful or not, but, it does say... 'This is a copy of your agreement to keep..... '. 'to keep' being the operative words... Now, does that not suggest that it was a separate piece of paper - not on the back of the signature page, otherwise would it not have been incorrect? How say you to that, Cerabus?? charlie*

I don't see how Cabot can possibly fulfil an SAR, do you cerberus?? My own thoughts are that you could let this one flow smoothly over the top of your head without you seeing it go - time after time after time - S'not easy, but just keep cool. charlie*

Cabot again, huh? I stopped hearing from Goldfish a long time ago, then I started to receive the odd letter from Cabot... I wrote and told them to bugger off because this was in dispute. This was over a year ago. Since then, I get the occasional courtesy letter saying that they have asked Goldfish for the info I asked for and they are still waiting.... I think they will have a long wait.... send the £1 and request the agreement... that will place the whole thing in default.

Notn far above this post there is one of mine describing how the Bank of England works...... It's a [problem]... why don't we all write to our MP's asking them to raise the matter in the House.... dammit, if an American Senator can do it (see video above... last post of mine), then why can't we? At one stroke, ALL debt could be cancelled and the Bank could be closed in favour of placing the issuance and control of 'money' in the hands of the Treasury. All it needs if a man of courage ( we used to have plenty in the country until New Labour) to put his country and the people above his loyalty to those who actually control the monetary system - the bunch of private bankers some of whom also own the Fed (don't forget, Britain stills owns America). charlie*

Sainsbury's contract.... Under Customer Declaration, line 3... quote............ "as set out overleaf" unquote Does this mean it is enforceable?

There is a signature at the top of the application form and to the left of it you can see the date stamp... 19.05.04 If you now look to the bottom of the form, left hand side down a bit (as John Pertwee used to say in the Navy Lark) you will see another company signature but this one is date stamped May 06. Well, I wonder what this tells us? If you look down at 5 o'clock to the '6' in that date stamp, you will see a reference.. "CR60459 - Nov 03" I have the identical number, like this "CR60459(back) July 04" and it is perfectly legible if you would like to see it? Can't do it 'til my lad is here tomorrow. This is one that is giving me a headache... it obviously implies it's on the back of the signature paper, but, does 4 corners mean 2 sides of the same sheet or just the one? charlie*

Re the Mint CCA above... Thing is, my wife has a RBS Advanta Application (dated Nov 2000) it's legible enough with a glass and it's almost identical to this Mint CCA (Jan 2005). On the same line as the Mint Declaration and Authorisation it states the following.... "I accept and agree to be bound by the general conditions applying to the card as set out separately and the details about the card as set out overleaf... etc " This is where I am confused... some people say that four corners means one side others say both sides of the signature paper are within the 4 corners and where reference is made to 'overleaf' on the front page, then that could define enforceability or not depending on what is there... interest, term, level of credit, frequency of payment etc. The wording above is identical too. Also, copy of Credit Agreement set out in a 3 fold leaflet, both sides with Terms & Conditions ...RBS Advanta (later Mint of course) If our good friend cerbarusalert is listening in, SHOULD I POST THIS ONE SEPARATELY FOR YOU TO GIVE IT THE ONCE OVER? Thanks guys, sorry to intrude... seemed the best thing to do. charlie*

I have sound reason to believe that the bank does not have the original signed agreement....... it was sold. Consider this..... there is a trade amongst banks, some institutions and some of the wealthy elite. This trade is based upon buying and selling debt notes - often these 'financial instruments are referred to as 'prime bank guarantees' (don't waste your time asking at your bank, even the regional directors don't know about them) and they usually come in bundles valued at $100 million upwards... there are various kinds - the ones I know about are one year contracts giving a guaranteed yield - they involve The Fed and some major european banks - I believe they are often used for Third World loans - Letters of Credit, Educational Trust and doubtless others. They are so profitable that such that people as Brown, Bush, Blair and the rest will vehemently deny their existence. We, the proles (their slaves) are allowed to make on our money only that which government approves of and controls - no doubt as also directed by their masters. If not, they get jealous and worried and try to shut down all the off-shore facilities (like now). Here is a factual example - just to give you an idea.... the sub-prime mortgage business in America (and it went on here too - I could name and shame the odd bank or three back in the 80'd & 90's) was targeted at people who could not and by and large could never afford such mortgages even at the lowest deposit and income factors acceptable to normal UK banks. Like, low cost starters, 0% interest - )% deposits, unrealistic income multipliers and so-on. These sales people or brokers and those who provided the funds (the banks that manipulate global politics and commerce) knew that the majority of these mortgages would fail in due course, thus, they parcelled them up damned quickly and unloaded them onto unsuspecting investors around the world as 'a fantastic investment opportunity'. Well, of course, by the time the initial honeymoon of low start mortgage and high multipliers ran out and interest rates started to climb way beyond the ability to pay for so many poor suckers, the bundles of contracts had gone and those who bundled them collected truly huge sums of money... leaving the investors high and dry - promissory notes of very little value - because the mortgages were failing as people wlaked away from their dream homes. That's my take on it. Now, above, I mentioned Promissory Note, for that is what your loan agreement is and it has a sale value in this market, just the same as any other, like the sub-prime mortgage contracts... what is the attraction??? YOUR PROMISE TO PAY - and you pay by going to work every day and it is that that the banks capitalise on. (add to this deliberate planned inflation and to keep pace, wives and mothers had to start taking jobs too). Q.E.D (quadrat et demonstrandum) they cannot show an origional contract because they do not have them any more. The key to this is to place them in a position where a) they have to produce the original contract to prove their claim against you or b) to validate a contract that was in law (not statute) invalid and void the second it was signed... THAT IS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER. Thus, what they refer to as "your contract with us" is based upon fraud... and why? because if everyone knew the truth, what they do not tell you, the gutters would flow with blood - the blood of the bankers (Andrew Jackson, President of the USA said words to this effect after the Civil War). I somehow cannot help but think that the Consumer Credit Act of 1974 is some kind of ploy to steer the masses away from the actual law... and as I have said above, in law, the agreement is fraudulent and would not stand before an honest, interested, knowledgeable judge. That's how I see it not that I know what we can do about it. charlie* Wtach your blood pressure with this!!!

Well, I will certainly be writing to Sainsbury in the morning... see what it brings Keeping on saying 'thankyou' although seemingly inadequate, is all we can manage in a place such as this. Thank you charlie*

There are two dates and initials bottom right of the Conditions sheet running vertically.... " GYS.19 05 2002 (ELY.8 06 2003) " The signature date on the app is 23.09.04 Underneath the box is this mark (AP03) charlie

I have another Sainsbury's 'App form' - and the alleged 'overleaf' details referred to adjacent to my pencilled in arrow on the app form and this one is a perfect print - same info, slightly different layout, dated July 04 (the one onscreen is 2003) and it fits perfectly with a 1/4" margin round an A4 sheet. So, I dunno, I have nothing else to go by. Yes, I had seen the words 'application' - but, as ammunition does that have any value?.... especially, IF the Agreement and Conditions are printed on the reverse side, then surely, reference to them (ie my arrow indicating quote; (as set out overleaf and as amended from time to time) unquote must be detrimental to the cause - perhaps even making the paper enforceable - maybe - hope not If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Obliged to you and many thanks, charlie*

cerbarusalert.... whilst things seem to be fairly quiet (looks like to me) and you are online, would you be kind enough to look at the Sainsbury's sig form... it's on page 2 half way down right now... under Can I have some expert advice on a Sainsbury credit card please. By the way, I sent of your suggested letter... just wait and see now Many thanks indeed. charlie*

cerbarusalert..... Okay... Thanks, Tis all very confusing. charlie*