It's a hassle. It's a nuisance. Especially when the Post Office closes at lunchtime, but please remember to send all mail by signed for recorded delivery. It's £1.04 (I think) - quite outrageous but you'll love it when the receipted signature comes up on the Royal Mail website. Regards Vandermerwe

Hi Angel. I'm at the same stage. They have been taking my state benefits to pay their utterly outrageous "arrangement fees". I am writing to say they will not be imposing any more such penalties until the fat lady sings. Will they? Regards. Vandermerwe

The short answer to your question is 'yes'. Verbal contracts do exist and, under certain circumstances, can be enforced. In your case, however, I think they are trying it on and don't have a leg to stand on. One of the worst results oif these all to common scenarios is the "heated discussion with wife" - I should know I still have the scars to prove it! My advice FWIW and IANAL (for what it's worth and I am not a lawyer) is to first of all cease dealing with this crowd by telephone and write, keeping a copy, by recorded delivery asking for a copy of the contract. I don't think you will ever hear from them again, but just watch your direct debits. Again, apropos, your question regarding verbal contracts my understanding is that in the unlikely event a case goes to court it is heard under Civil Law on which evidence is heard and judgment made on "the balance of probabilities". In Criminal Law judgment should be made on "beyond reasonable doubt". These principles, including habeas corpus, are entrenched in English Law and have been for 1000 plus years. Most unfortunately, 'Nu-Labor' has seen fit to interfere and we are all very likely to come under the EU Napoleonic code which, without putting too fine a point on it, means 'guilty until proved innocent' If you would like me to continue following your all-too-common situation please give my scales (the grey blob in the bottom left between the green dot and the read triangle) a click and I'll do so, but in all honesty I think the letter will do the trick. Good luck and best regards. Vandermerwe

I enjoy this thread even though I have had no dealings with the gentleman concerned. If I had, I would have no hesitation in outlining my complaint to Tony Hetherington at "Financial Mail" (part of "The Mail on Sunday"). He takes a fiendish delight in running certain types to earth, namely crooked share dealers, dishonest property and time share sellers and.....the solicitors they use. Vandermerwe P.S. His details are elsewhere on this site - any difficulty and I'll post them.

Thanks Pete. Am awaiting all the bumf from the Co-op. Funny thing I can still remember my Mum's divi number from the war years. It was 3931 (keep it to yourself!!) Cheers. Van

Good morning girls. Sarah - try a dash of brandy in the coffee, but have the choccy too if it makes you feel better. But go for them. Ammani - good one! Remember the DWP is going to cease issuing giros next year so get them paid into your parachute account. If you write to the press PM me with the name so I write to the other. I feel the letter coming on, but there are only so many hours in the day a number of which are taken up with looking after an unwell wife. Keep it up and good luck as ever! Van

Good morning SC. I would say if anyone could be referred to as the archetypical CAGger you can. That was a reasoned, eloquent and unemotional post you made which does you credit and - for what it's worth - a tip of your scales from me. I must whisper this, but one of my sons is a barrister. He practices at the Criminal Bar and knows very little about civil matters, but does say he and his colleagues get all the fun whilst those at the Civil Bar make all the money. I gather it is unheard of for a Member of the Bar to pass a skeleton argument direct to a lay person, particularly in the circumstances you describe. There could well be grounds for a complaint to the Bar Society. PM me if you want to discuss this further. FWIW (for what it's worth) judges are usually drawn from the Bar and blood is thicker than water. In fact some may actually be practising barristers. Like Cherie Blair QC. Once you've got this behind you, get a basic account (known on these threads as a parachute account) and use it just as you would cash under the floorboards. There are still many French people who keep francs under their mattress and shops that take them - they just don't trust the Euro (and who can blame them!) Let's keep in touch via this thread because I think you are an inspiration to us all. If you agree, give my scales a click. If you don't just say so - I shan't take offence and will shut up. You're a strong person SC. Good luck for the future. Van

Very dismayed SC. You don't think HSBC identified you from the info. given on your thread do you? I have heard tell they (and undoubdtedly others too) monitor these threads with very powerful computers. The thought struck me when I passed by GCHQ in Cheltenham (being enlarged yet again) at the weekend to visit a close friend dying in Cheltenham hospital's oncology unit. Van

Hi Fish 77. My scene exactly, so appreciate the note of your experiences. I'm a bit mystified as to the difference between 'unlawful' and 'illegal', but then, as they say IANAL. No single person I have ever spoken to at HSBC seems to have any authority. I got through once to my local branch - I think more by luck than judgement - and got £250 refunded but the letter you quote in your first post is what is termed a 'template' letter and will undoubtedly continue to suggest seeking advice from various sources including the local library, (patronising schmucks) I called one of the sources and they told me, in no uncertain terms, to get a parachute account for all incoming monies and sue them. Quite good advice I thought as I mentally envisaged that highly regarded body being deleted from their list of recommendations. You also mention 'child benefit'. That's a state benefit and supposedly subject to rights of first appropriation under the Social Security Act 1962. Suggest you search the site for 'banks taking state benefits' or similar. And, finally, Pete - of course they'll suspend all further charges until the whole can of worms is sorted out....won't they? Good luck to all. Vandermerwe

Hi Sarah. I hesitate to put my ten cents' worth in at this late stage, but isn't there something (fudged obviously, knowing this government) about 'hardship' cases getting precedence? Just a couple of other points about your thread. I'm really surprised to hear about unhelpful court staff. They are usually extremely helpful even though they will not give legal advice. Maybe you should try again? Secondly, you did know that limbo no longer officially exists? Good luck. Vandermerwe

Hello Pete. Good to see your name cropping up again but not laffin? Am hoping to get a Co-op Cashminder account next week so I can use my state benefits for luxuries such as food and water instead of having them, er, 'acquired' from my account for "arrangement fees". I can think of far more perjorative words than the one rothschildbankingtakeover used. OK if we call you RBTO from now on young chap? Good luck! Vandermerwe

Thanks UKA. I see you give a lot of help to 'newbies'. I'll put an appropriate letter on the pile. Am hoping to get my parachute account early next week when I shall feel (hopefully) a bit more relaxed as FD are owned by HSBC which has been helping themselves to my state benefits in huge chunks as "arrangement fees". Thanks again. Van

I agree Belaflat. I have no argument with the philosophical arguments on this thread, but it's the Law of the Jungle out there or, to use the old saying "When you're up to your a*** in alligators you forget the objective was the drain the swamp. Vandermerwe

I would suggest (based on experience) GE have flogged off the alleged debt as part of a job lot to CL Finance who now own the debt and it is up to them to demonstrate proof thereof. There's loads about this company (and their paramilitary wing H. Cohen) but if you want contact details, phone numbers etc. just ask and I'll post them. Good look - don't let the b******s grind you down. Vandermerwe

Ian, that was an interesting narrative concerning Royal Mail and their contractual obligation. They essentially put me out of business eighteen months ago by not delivering reply paid business cards to me requesting contact from my company, yet they charged me for them, and even gave docket numbers and dates for when they were allegedly delivered. Postwatch intervened. No compensation. No explanation - just bull dust. Got a refund of £7 for charges made though!! Bought a bottle of wine to share with my dearly beloved who had help me run a similar business for 25 years (not in England though!!) At the end of July I got another bill from them for some £200 'top up' for the reply service - again nothing received (by this time I had changed to a reply paid envelope rather than a card) Since I am unaccustomed to using the type of language their staff would probably understand I have yet to respond. However, by chance, I discovered the CAG site and try and chuck in my ten cents' worth from time to time to try and help and/or give moral support to people who seem to be even worse off than I am. But, to get back to the contractual relationship with Royal Mail. During July I sent four letters to a certain bank, addressed to their street address and correct post code not one of which was acknowledged. I then sent copies by recorded mail to the branch - a rather attractive listed building in a nondescript West Midlands town - sought a delivery receipt which a) said the envelope had been delivered by their Nondescript office, and (b) signed for by Fanny Adams (or someone of similar name). It had not, and neither, I gather had the others. Some clerk at the branch eventually told me no mail was delivered to them by Royal Mail - it all went to a central processing depot. Probably in Bangalore. By this time I damned well just gave up. But what about my 'contract' with Royal Mail to deliver an article to a given address? Would love to learn the views of others. Vandermerwe

Hi Sara. I know exactly how you feel about the bank(s) and also the following of threads on this site. You ask if there is any way to fix this quickly. The answer is no, but you need recommended action. My suggestions are (but see my caveat below): a) Never communicate with a bank by phone or face to face. Do it only in writing and, despite the hassle, use recorded delivery and keep a copy. b) Have a cup of strong coffee this morning and wade through my conversations above with Ammani. c) Write a brief but reasoned letter giving the outline of events to one of the columnists I have recommended to Ammani. d) Phone the National Debtline (it's free being a charity) on 0808 808-4000 and ask their advice - they have some astonishingly good fact sheets which are also available on National Debtline, for FREE CONFIDENTIAL and INDEPENDENT ADVICE call 0808 808 4000 e) AFAIK (As far as I know) [there are some quite indecipherable acronyms on this site!] you are not limited to one basic account, so try opening one with the Co-op but, remember, no cheque book, no overdraft facility, but DDs are payable, and get all your state benefits paid into it and disburse them as and when you wish - but it means watching the situation virtually daily - but it feels good to be in control. In fact, the one thing I have learned from joining CAG in April is that it's all about ME being in control of my financial affairs instead of THEM. f) Who is your MP? Decide whether you feel he/she would be supportive and if so contact him/her. I am mugging up on all I can about first appropriation of benefits - difficult because I am not a computer geek - and intend seeking my M.P.'s support to ask awkward questions. And I'm not talking pennies here - my bank calls their monthly fines or penalty charges "arrangement fees" and -zip- there goes £75 off my state pension/benefits. It's mayhem out there. You can see my background by clicking on my name, I ran my own business for 30 years and earned sufficient to educate three children to become a consultant surgeon, a leading barrister, and a midwife (that's why we never had money for holidays!) but back in England we are treated like **** by the banks. I think I forgot to mention my overdraft (which was only acquired in April) is £1000! Sara, if you find this sort of rather belligerent advice helpful give my scales a click (that's the blob between the green spot and the red triangle at the bottom left of the post) and I'll keep in contact. If this is not the sort of advice you want just tell me and I'll shut up! Good luck. Vandermerwe Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, I'm not qualified in any way (except common sense) to give advice and would certainly not be approved by 'elf 'n safety and the other government quangos supported by our taxes.

Now received a letter saying my account was over its limit (of £500 for gawd's sake) on August 16. My statement shows it wasn't. Any advice on what to do with the damned liars? Van

Which court? In view of time available my advice would be to phone the court manager and ask for advice concerning procedure. She (it's usually a she) will not give you any legal advice but should be helpful concerning timing and requirements. Not much to give you, I know, but maybe better than nothing. Good luck! Vandermerwe

Jenny, in my view you should switch back and do sweet Foxtrot Alpha! Vandermerwe

Interesting. Mine was done by telephone via one of the call centres and I am currently having problems on reclaiming charges because I have never been told what the rate was. The overdraft was for the enormous sum of £1000! Vandermerwe

Thanks for your kind words Ammani, they're much appreciated. I most definitely think you should go to the press and suggest you read two of this weekend's columnists, Jessica Gorst-Williams in "The Telegraph" 'Your Money' section, and Diana Wright in "The Sunday Times" 'Money Section'. You'll find Jessica's column on Your Money - Telegraph by clicking on "Jessica Investigates" and I Googled "a question of money" for Diana's column. They are both typical of their weekly style, and Jessica's conditions are shown on her site. I didn't actually spot Diana's conditions so I'll quote from the paper: E-mail Diana Wright at the address below (no attachments please) or write to A Question of Money, The Sunday Times, 1 Pennington Street, London E98 1ST, giving a daytime telephone number. We cannot send personal replies or deal with every letter. Please do not send original documents or SAEs. Advice is offered without legal responsibility. I wouldn't bother seeking legal advice about mentioning names as you will see both columnists heavily edit or precis readers' comments. You must choose one or the other - it would be most unwise to write to both. One of my other favourites is Tony Hetherington of "The Mail on Sunday" but he concentrates more on share and insurance scams. Do let us know what you decide to do. Maybe other readers will check these two columnists and also write in. Good luck! Van

As indeed they do, Rory. Ahem, £150 "arrangement fees" this month Van because (I assume) I guaranteed a couple of cheques. Straight out of my state benefits. Also a three page computer generated letter written virtually verbatim from the "code". I phoned one of their sources of advice and was told 'open a parachute account and sue them for their penalty charges' That didn't need a nanny booklet. Vandermerwe

Or a country member ODC? Van

"Manager", what's that Ammani? Fifty years ago he was the chap in charge of the branch of a bank where, in my case, I did not have an account but where a rather attractive girl worked. He had total authority over all his customers' accounts. He liked some, he disliked others (including staff) but treated everyone fairly including the girl I fancied who had family problems and who he treated like a daughter. His first clerk, if that was the title, was a total jobsworth whose name I have forgotten but tried to hold sway over all that passed through the door. Needless to say, he detested the twerp who came in to chat up the counter assistant. As did the acne-ridden other counter clerk. The building is still there but, alas, no "Manager". Only the jobsworth's successor. Why do I recall this? Because 45 years ago I married the rather attractive girl who still speaks favourably of her 'manager' and who came to our wedding. You do not need to go into a Co-op branch. I don't think I have ever seen one. It's all done by telephone. If you want to go to the media (which I think you should) I will post some suggestions tomorrow when the Sundays have come. If you wish me to continue with these posts just give my scales a click, but I shan't take offence if you just tell me to go away. Regards Van P.S. Please forgive the waffle but this, I have found, can be a fairly empathetic site.

Hi Lantana That's interesting about MBNA owning Arrow Global - can you post or PM me with more info.? I've got a particular gripe with them. Vandermerwe