This is the relevant part

.

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru*ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the .

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

thanks paul

im working on defence but as a bit of an aside, just sending this in reply to them wanting sig verification (2nd letter so think i need to reply), signed in luminous pink marker pen:

Dear Madam,

I write with regard to your letter of xxxxxx in relation to my identification, for my rightful requests, of documentation. I can only presume, as you do not say, that you are referring to one or all of my requests dated xx December 2008, xx February 2009, xx March2009 and xx March 2009, of which I am sure you are aware.

I find it amazing, that you can send countless letters of a clearly sensitive nature, including that of a County Court Judgement and resulting Charging Order to the very same name and address, without any need or thought to verify my details, yet find it impossible to send me any documentation, at my request, under my rights within the Data Protection Act 1998 and indeed the Civil Procedure Rules governing Civil Action within the judicial system. By the very action of sending the letter referred to above, you have deemed me resident at this address.

I enclose the relevant requests, AGAIN, for your perusal and you will find that I have indeed signed this letter, which you may take as verification of all my requests.

I require that you send me ALL of the relevant paperwork, documentation and information required by these requests within 7 days. I do not see this as unreasonable, as I have been making requests for documentation from your organisation since xx December 2008, without success. The deadline for the Subject Access Request is xx April 2009 and for the CPR31.16 requests xx March 2009 and xx April 2009, respectively. This quite clearly, has given you an extremely generous amount of time in which to reply. May I remind you that this documentation may be included in legal proceedings.

Should you not be able to adhere to any of the requests, I require you to confirm, in writing, exactly which parts and your exact reasons for non compliance, within the above timeframe.

I trust this makes my position clear and I look forward to receiving your response.

Yours Faithfully

r&b

looking at my case bit by bit here...do the POC not seem particularly vague? would i not have defended under CPR 16 in this case?...and collection fee a tad on the rotund side?

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unused defence removed to avoid confusion with followong defence

Hello R&B!

I regret I have no experience of set-aside applications, but have been asked to take a look at your Thread to see if I can help...glad to try!

One additional issue could be that if they did not respond correctly to your s77-79 request, then they could've been constrained from taking any action.

If a Loan s77(1) Request, then they would've been constrained via s77(4).

If a Credit Card s78(1) Request, then they would be constrained via s78(6).

You can read the details of the sections here:

The Consumer Credit Act 1974

I think you are building up a good case, so the above is just something extra that you may not have covered.

IOW, they may've been constrained form taking any action even before they issued a Default Notice and Terminated the Account, but I have only speed-read the Thread, so it may be that your CCA 77-79 Request went in after the Default Notice/Termination, in which case the above is not that useful.

Aside from the constraint issues, the lack of either a properly executed Regulated Credit Agreement and a valid Default Notice should present major problems for them.

They should have Default Notice problems because of s87/s88, and they should have s127(3) problems if no signed Agreement exists that contains the Prescribed Terms within the four corners of it.

Cheers,

BRW

BRW, many thanks for taking the time. i appreciate your comments. i have not to my knowledge, had a default notice and as u can see from the POC above (post#154) they dont seem to have issued one. they have admitted that they cannot get a copy of the actual agreement albeit on 'without prejudice' letter, but will be relying on regulation 3 Consumer Credit (cancellation notices and copies of documentss) regulations 1983 (which im still trying to get my head around) to convince the DJ that the executed blank agreement is sufficient. There is also the charges issue (on POC), which i am now looking into as this somehow, inflated the last figure on the loan statement by over £4000 in total. i have requested information for all this on several occasions (CCA/SAR/CPR31.16 X2). The vague dates for the 'contract' on the POC seem another nail if i can hammer it. im no lawyer but i think it goes towards the probability that they had no agreement on which to enforce.

thanks r&b

The way that you plead this properly is that effectively you produce two documents - one a defence in which you plead facts and not law and the other is that you produce a skeleton argument that explains why your judgment should be set aside and which contains the law. You then send them both to the court.

The way that you draft your defence I think should be how I've already explained and using my amended defence as a template. I'll see if I can find a skeleton to show you how to do that bit.

I've now put a skeleton on my thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/191754-arrow-global-ignm.html#post2113657

If you prepare a separate doc like this - if you want to you can put all the quotes from the law and cases into it - it also means that you understand your own arguments

nice work IGNM, i ll work thru it cheers

ive been wading thru the stuff for the n244 app for the 31.16...it occurred to me that on PTs thread on the matter its all geared to pre-action...as im in a case already, does CPR 31.6 not come onto play, thereby foregoing the need for n244? or have i got that wrong?

CPR 31.6

Standard disclosure requires a party to disclose only –

(a) the documents on which he relies; and

(b) the documents which –

(i) adversely affect his own case;

(ii) adversely affect another party’s case; or

(iii) support another party’s case; and

© the documents which he is required to disclose by a relevant practice direction.

31.16 is pre-action BUT 31.14 is whilst the action is underway - you need the disclosure now not at the disclosure stage.

The way that standard disclosure works is that you file your defence and the then the AQ. The case gets allocated to the fast track and you get directions which include disclosure. Which is usually several months after you're defence has been filed.

The problem with many Consumer Credit claims is that the claim form doesn't contain enough information to allow you to draft a proper defence so what you do is to make a CPR 31.14 request for documents and/or a Request for further information of the claim - I tend to just do the the 31.14 request to get the documents because that's how you get to know if its' a valid CCA etc. You also file a holding defence.

Once you've got the info you then apply to amend the claim. Most of this happens before the stage of standard disclosure is reached.

In your case the situation is different because you are trying to set a judgment aside - so standard disclosure isn't going to help you- you need to apply for part 31.14 disclosure - if you're request was made under CPR 31.16 argue that the effect of them iossuing proceedings was to converet it to a 31.14 request and apply on an N244 for your Order.

Write to the OP today, as well, and tell them that they should treat your 31.16 request as a 31.14 request and in any event you still require, pursuant to CPR Part 31 - and list the documents - tell them that you have applied for an Order and remind them that the rules require compliance within 7 days.

Unfortunately I'm away now until Weds night so hopefully you'll get it sorted out

ok gotcha thanks agn...shud i go thru the whole process as per PTs thread (witness stmts etc) or can i short cut it for the n244 app? hope ur break is pleasure....

I think what IGNM is saying is you need to turn the 31.16 request into a 31.14 request for the reasons he stated so you need to write to the OS and tell them this. I think he means that because you have done the 31.16 and sent reminders that you can now go ahead and issue the N244 for disclosure, as long as you have told the OS to treat the 31.16 as a 31.14. both are part of cpr31 any way.

have a look at this thread, it will reveal that 31.14 is in responce to a claim or poc. I think with this you can only ask for docs that are mentioned in the POC.

here is the thread.... it explains all.....http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html

31.16 is pre-action BUT 31.14 is whilst the action is underway - you need the disclosure now not at the disclosure stage.

 

The way that standard disclosure works is that you file your defence and the then the AQ. The case gets allocated to the fast track and you get directions which include disclosure. Which is usually several months after you're defence has been filed.

 

The problem with many Consumer Credit claims is that the claim form doesn't contain enough information to allow you to draft a proper defence so what you do is to make a CPR 31.14 request for documents and/or a Request for further information of the claim - I tend to just do the the 31.14 request to get the documents because that's how you get to know if its' a valid CCA etc. You also file a holding defence.

 

Once you've got the info you then apply to amend the claim. Most of this happens before the stage of standard disclosure is reached.

 

In your case the situation is different because you are trying to set a judgment aside - so standard disclosure isn't going to help you- you need to apply for part 31.14 disclosure - if you're request was made under CPR 31.16 argue that the effect of them iossuing proceedings was to converet it to a 31.14 request and apply on an N244 for your Order.

 

Write to the OP today, as well, and tell them that they should treat your 31.16 request as a 31.14 request and in any event you still require, pursuant to CPR Part 31 - and list the documents - tell them that you have applied for an Order and remind them that the rules require compliance within 7 days.

 

Unfortunately I'm away now until Weds night so hopefully you'll get it sorted out

ok gotcha thanks agn...shud i go thru the whole process as per PTs thread (witness stmts etc) or can i short cut it for the n244 app? hope ur break is pleasure....

Can anyone else clarify?

gd call Q, thats a read n half..i was just unsure as to whether to do the whole boot n braces version of PTs or not but i ll formulate everything today/tonite n get em in tom mng, letter to chge 31.16 into 31.14 will go gteed today with copies of my original rqsts.

thanks to u n IGNM for the help

added: i think theres enuff in the thread u suggested Q, post 59 and 107/8 seem to help,thanks.

rite this is goin soon:

CPR 31.14 Request

Dear Sir

Re: HFC BANK LTD v r&b, Case No:xxxxxxxx

On xx March 2009 and xx March 2009, I wrote to your organization under CPR 31.16 in request of certain documents pertaining to the above case number in xxxxxx County Court.

I must inform you that I have received no reply to these requests.

I write to inform you that you may take this letter as confirmation that you may treat the aforementioned CPR31.16 requests as CPR31.14 requests. I believe this to be applicable as proceedings have now begun. In any event I still require, pursuant to CPR31, including but not limited to: a true copy of the contract mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, full details of the charges mentioned on the Particulars of Claim and a full breakdown as to how the figures are attained in the Particulars of Claim.

I confirm having applied to the Court for an Order to this effect.

I confirm that you have 7 days in which to comply, which I believe to be reasonable, with regard to the timescales imposed by the District Judge at the set aside hearing of 8th April 2009.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this request.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 7 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

yours faithfully

Not sure if you should allow them more time

Not sure about this part of your letter " that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence." because i don't know how you go about getting extra time, as DJ has given you 21 days and this is a defence for a ccj set aside, don't u have to get the defence in by 29th april?

I know you need to get this letter sent so go for it, you are probably correct. I know you are supposed to allow them adequate time normally.

I really don't know but just trying to open it up for discussion.

Can anyone chip in with any thoughts on the last post, please?

needs editing sry

im thinking of putting this for what im asking the court to do (box 3) on n244 for the 31.14 disclosure. can i ask that the judgement be set aside without further ado for non compliance? and is 7 days long enough cos im very tight for time here? (its a play on a theme from one of x20s 31.14 applications) any swift answers wud be really appreciated .thanks

" An order that unless the within 7 days of the making of an order upon this application the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on 21st April 2009 pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the contract [2] full details and breakdown of the charges and [3] full details and breakdown of the default balance, the judgement be set aside and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court with the costs of this case to be paid by the Claimant to the Defendant to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975."

ive only asked for these docs cos thats all there is on the POC..

quick bump, its all ready to go as is, asking for the judgement to be set aside if non compliance within 7 days. it ll be at the court at 9 bells.

Just out of interest R&B have you seen this?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/95860-any-one-taken-hfc.html

cheers spam ill have to check the statements...... ive asked for a full breakdown of charges and how they came to their figs etc in my 31.16/31.14 rqsts so IF they bother replying we ll see. if not well.....

ok what ive dun then:

1.yest sent letter gteed next day stating that they are to take my 31.16 rqsts as 31.14 rqsts as proceedings have now started, giving 7 days in which to comply (named the specific docs in the POC which i require- which wasnt much in this POC to be honest)

2.letter goin in this mng, with N244s, to court mgr asking that the applications go in asap due to impending deadlines with defence.

3. N244s going in this mng with letter asking for order of compliance with 31.14 rqsts (copies of previous rqsts attached) and that if no compliance the case be set aside after the 29th, by whichtime i will have my defence ready anyway.

thats my best guess at what i should have dun (following IGNM guidelines), so did it.

N244s in, enormous backlog at court apparently, directions not even available yet from set aside hearing on 8th ??? can this garner more time or u just have to go on what DJ said?