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    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Can a PPC (claimant) refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Time Orders


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Time Orders

What credit agreements are covered?

 

You can apply for a time order if your credit agreement is regulated by the Consumer

Credit Act 1974. This depends on when you took out your agreement and how much you

borrowed at the time. Your loan will be regulated if you borrowed less than the following

amounts:

• £15,000 if you took your credit agreement out before 1 May 1998;

• £25,000 if you took your credit agreement out between 1 May 1998 and 5 April 2008;

• there is no financial limit if you took your credit agreement out from 6 April 2008

(unless your loan was taken out for business purposes).

 

Bank and buildings society mortgages taken out to buy your home are not covered. If you have a loan agreement it should state whether

it is covered by the Consumer Credit Act. The agreement should have a heading that says: 

CONSUMER CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

N440 is used pre litigation  - n1 used if its already in court.

 

When can I apply for a time order?

1. When an ‘arrears notice’ has been issued by your lender.

From October 2008, the lender must send you an arrears notice if you have missed two payments on your agreement. This notice must be sent to you within 14 days. It should tell you how much you owe under the agreement, how much the arrears are and if any interest or charges are being added.

New rules say that you can apply for a time order after you have received an arrears notice. You must write to your lender and give them 14 days notice that you are going to apply for a time order.

You must include in the letter details of the offer of payment you are going to make in your application.

Don’t forget to keep a copy of your letter as you will need to show this to the court when you apply for a time order.

 

TIME ORDERS

The procedure and forms you need to use depends upon whether you have a secured loan, a hire purchase/conditional sale agreement or unsecured loan. See the sections below for details of how to apply.

There will usually be a fee to pay with your application. If you are on a low income or certain benefits you may not have to pay the fee.

 

2. When a ‘default notice’ or ‘calling in notice’ or ‘termination notice’ has been issued by your lender.

The lender can issue a default or termination notice and call in the loan if you have fallen behind with payments.

Once you have received this, you can make an application to the County Court for a time order.

You don’t need to write to your lender to give notice that you are going to apply at this stage. The procedure and forms you need to use depends upon whether you have a secured loan, a hire purchase/conditional sale agreement or unsecured loan.

There will usually be a fee to pay with your application. If you are on a low income or certain benefits you may not have to pay the fee.

 

When Court Action Has Already Started

If a creditor has already started court action against you then you can still apply for a time order. The procedure and forms you need to use depend upon whether you have a secured loan, a hire purchase/conditional sale agreement or unsecured loan.

Type of debt to which a time order can apply - Unsecured credit

If you have an ordinary credit agreement which is not a secured loan/second mortgage you would not normally need to ask for a time order to be made.

If a creditor has already taken court action, then you should apply to pay the judgment at a rate you can afford.

The court should look at making an order for you to pay in instalments you can afford.

Interest is normally frozen automatically on court judgments for agreements under the Consumer Credit Act.

You may want to ask for a time order if an arrears notice or a default notice has been issued but the creditor is refusing either to accept your offer of payment, or to freeze the interest. If interest is still being added on to the debt and the creditor refuses to take court action then applying for a time order may be the only way to ask for the interest to be frozen. If the court makes a time order and you keep up to date with the payments, a creditor cannot apply for a county court judgment to be made.

This means a judgment will not appear on the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines or on credit reference agency files, although the creditor may have registered the default on your credit reference file already when you fell behind with the loan.

 

1. How to apply before court action

You need a claim form called an N440 which you have to fill in with supporting information called the ‘particulars of claim’ You also need a full personal budget sheet and details of your circumstances. This should be taken to your local county court.

There will be a fee to pay with your application. If you are on a low income or certain benefits you may not have to pay the fee.

The creditor can put in a defence to the court objecting to your time order application.

There will be a hearing and the district judge will decide whether to make a time order in your case.

 

2. How to apply after court action

You can apply for a time order after your creditor has taken you to court by using a general court application form called an N244.

There will be a fee to pay with your application unless you do not have to pay the fee.

You need to include full details of your circumstances and a full personal budget sheet with the application. There will be a hearing where the creditor can object to the time order being made. The district judge will decide whether to make a time order in your case. If the creditor started action against you in a county court elsewhere you may need to apply for the case to be transferred to your local county court.

 

Some creditors say they can charge interest before and after judgment even though the court usually stops interest automatically on a Consumer Credit Act regulated agreement. It may be possible to ask the court to make a time order in this situation to stop or reduce the interest.

 

Hire purchase or conditional sale agreement

When a creditor goes to court for a ‘return of goods order’ you can ask for this to be suspended on the condition that you pay a fixed amount per month. This will usually be to pay the normal monthly instalment plus an amount on top to clear the arrears.

You can ask the court to make a time order if you cannot afford to pay the full instalments. The court will often make a court order to let you keep the hire purchase/conditional sale goods and pay off the agreement at the reduced amount without stating they are making a time order.

 

1. How to apply before court action

If the creditor has issued an arrears notice or a default notice on a hire purchase/conditional sale agreement then you can apply to the county court for a time order. The court can look at changing the terms of the whole agreement, not just the arrears, even if the whole loan has not been called in.

2. How to apply after court action

If your creditor goes for a ‘return of goods order’ they will send you a claim form called an N1. You can fill in the reply form called an N9C which comes with the application. Ask for the return order to be suspended (so that you keep the goods) on the condition that you pay a fixed amount on top to clear the arrears.

You can ask the court to agree that you pay less than the full monthly instalments if that is all you can afford

Your offer will need to be ‘reasonable’ rather than a token payment if you want to get a time order. If the creditor accepts the offer there does not have to be a hearing for this to happen.

If the court agrees then you will get a return order that is not enforceable as long as you pay off the instalments set by the court. This is actually a time order although it may not be clear that this is the case.

 

Secured loans

 

You may be able to use a time order to reschedule the payments on a loan that is secured on your house.

 

A time order may be a good option if you have fallen behind with a secured loan. You may be able to stop the lender repossessing your home.

 

You can apply for a time order once the arrears notice or the default notice has been issued or if your lender takes you to court to ask for a possession order.

 

1. How to apply before court action

 

You may be able to use a time order to reschedule the payments on a loan secured on

your home in order to stop repossession action. You can also apply for a time order once the creditor has sent you an arrears notice. You must write to your lender to give them 14 days notice that you intend to apply for a time order. You must include details of the offer of payment you are going to make in your time order application

 

Don’t forget to keep a copy of your letter as you will need to show this when you apply for a time order. You can also apply for a time order once the creditor has sent you a default notice and called in the loan.

 

You can do this without sending a letter giving notice to your lender first. You need to apply to your local county court using a court form called an N440.

 

There will be a fee to pay with your application. If you are on a low income or

certain benefits you may not have to pay the fee.

 

You also need to fill in the details of your income, outgoings and personal circumstances

on a ‘schedule’. There will be a hearing where your lender can object to a time order being made. It is up to the district judge to make a time order or refuse your application. If the time order is refused the lender could start possession proceedings to try to repossess your home.

 

2. How to apply after court action

 

You can apply for a time order when your lender makes a possession claim against you in your local county court. You will be sent a form N5 by the court and need to fill in the

defence form called an N11M. Tick Box 6 to ask the court to consider a time order and send this to the court with full details of your defence, details of income and outgoings and personal circumstances. You can ask for the payments to be reduced and for the loan to be rescheduled if necessary.

 

There are no fees to pay with this application as you are just replying to a court claim (fees are added to the possession claim by your lender instead).

 

There will usually be a hearing where the lender can object to a time order being made. The district judge may decide to make a time order, suspend possession and allow you to stay in your home as long as you make the payments ordered. They can also refuse your application and make an outright possession order. If you already have a possession order you can still make an application for a time order. You need to use the general application form N244

 

Has the whole loan been called in?

 

The law has not been entirely clear on what the court’s powers are when making a time order.

 

Following two court of appeal cases, time orders seem to apply in two situations.

 

Time orders on the arrears only

Sometimes a time order can only help with how much you should pay every month on the payments you have missed, leaving the ongoing monthly payments unchanged. This might mean the court also needs to look at changing or freezing the amount of interest being added to the arrears and possibly the interest rate on the whole balance you owe under the agreement. This is the case if the lender has only sent you an arrears notice (or in some cases a default notice) but the whole loan has not been called in. This is more likely where you have only had an arrears notice, as under the terms of most agreements the whole loan is called in automatically when the lender sends a default notice to you.

 

Time order on the whole agreement

 

You may have to wait for the loan to be called in before making your time order application if you want to ask the court to reduce the payments you have to make on the whole agreement and not just the arrears. Sometimes a time order can be used to change the whole agreement, setting lower payments and interest charges, and in certain circumstances stopping interest being added at all. This can only be done when the whole loan has been called in by the lender, where the loan agreement has automatically terminated on default or once possession proceedings have begun.

 

Advice

 

Anything you can say to show your situation is through no fault of your own will help when applying for a time order as the court will look at your payment record. Make sure you show how you got into debt and why you took the loan out.

 

What should you ask for

 

• If you cannot afford the full instalment you need to ask for the loan and arrears to be

rescheduled.

 

• For the court to be able to make a time order you must be able to afford to make an

offer of payment. The court will consider whether you can afford to pay what you

have offered or if you are offering as much as you realistically can afford.

 

• The court has to look at the position of the creditor as well as your situation when

deciding if it is ‘just’ to make a time order. This means if you cannot make an offer at all

or are unlikely to ever be able to pay off the loan the court may decide not to make a

time order.

 

• If you have asked for a new instalment rate but want to repay the debt within the same period of time then you can ask the court to change the interest rate to allow you to do this. Also, the interest may be so high that your reduced payments have no effect

without reducing the interest. You will also need to ask for any default interest and

charges to be frozen.

 

• If you can afford to make the normal monthly payments you need to ask for a time order to fix payments on the arrears only. If you get a time order on the arrears only you may want to ask the court to reduce or freeze the interest in order to let you repay the debt over a reasonable time. This will be necessary where interest being added on to the arrears is the same or more than the amount you can afford to pay towards clearing the arrears.

 

Is it ‘just’ to make a time order?

 

The court needs to look at the creditor’s position as well as your circumstances.

 

• Was the reason you took out the credit a good one?

 

• Could you afford the payments when you first took out the agreement?

 

• Is your agreement very expensive or not appropriate for your needs at the time?

Point out a high interest rate and how much you would have to pay back over the whole period.

 

• Have you taken out further credit since? If so, was there a good reason for this?

 

• Have you had a good payment record until the point you stopped paying?

 

• What is the reason for your non-payment?

 

Have your circumstances changed? Explain the background to your situation.

 

• Have you tried to sort out your problems and ask the creditor for a payment arrangement (to show that you haven’t ignored the debt)?

If the creditor has refused to negotiate you need to point this out.

Start making the payments you have offered as a gesture of goodwill.

 

• Is your situation temporary and likely to improve in the future? The court is likely to want to make a time order for a time-limited period.

 

Costs

 

You need to be careful with time order applications in relation to secured loan agreements. The secured lender is usually allowed to add possession costs and charges to the outstanding balance you owe on your loan.

 

If your time order is refused you may have lots of extra costs added to your debt. This will usually happen automatically. If there is good reasons that you feel the costs are unfair, you can ask the court to refuse the lender’s costs.

 

This might be if the creditor has been ‘unreasonable’ in some way.

 

Unfair relationships test

 

If you feel the interest rate charged on your agreement is excessively high, or that the terms and conditions of the agreement are unfair, you may be able to take action against your lender.

 

This may also apply if your lender has behaved unfairly in the way in which they have dealt with your agreement.

 

It will be up to the lender to prove that the agreement is not unfair. The

court will have wide powers to alter terms of the agreement or even order the lender to pay money back to you.

We could do with some help from you.

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UK Consumers should use statutory rights to reduce interest on credit agreements - By Mike Dailly - Govan Law Centre

 

 

Financially vulnerable consumers across the UK taken to court for defaulting on high interestlink3.gif credit - including 'second charge' mortgages - are unaware of powerful statutory rights which can help, according to Glasgow's Govan Law Centre.

 

Section 136 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA) permits the court to amend 'any agreement or security' in making a time order under section 129 of the Act as it considers just, having regard to the means of the debtor. That includes the right to ask the court to reduce the rate of interest within a consumer credit agreement.

 

Trawling through CAG magazine, I happened across an article by Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre. I was wondering if aside from using a Time Order for the purposes explained in Mr Dailly's article, whether those caught in the Pay Day Loan trap could also benefit.

Edited by citizenB

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Southern & District Finance plc v Barnes [1995] and Director General of Fair Trading v First National Bank [2001].

 

As part of the case of Southern District Finance plc v Barnes, the court of appeal also said that time orders should only normally be made if someone is in temporary financial difficulty. The court has not been very clear about how they should decide if your difficulties are ‘temporary’. You may have to show that your case is not a normal one or there is a good chance of your circumstances improving. The court may well only give a time order for a limited period. You may have to ask for any exceptional circumstances to be taken into

account to allow you to have a time order over a longer period.

 

However, in Director General of Fair Trading v First National Bank the court looked at whether you need to be in temporary financial difficulties to have a time order. They said that section 129 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 allows the court ‘to make such order as seems just to it in all the circumstances’

We could do with some help from you.

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