Hearing to remove stay

[johnnymitch]

Jonny you are close indeed...Did not realise, how have you found our District Judges? Or the Hitchin ones nastier...lol?

 

I dealt with the County Courtin Hitchin - on behalf of both my daughter and her husband - they couldn't have been more helpful - however HSBC & Barclays both paid up about 3 weeks before the telephone hearing was to take place so I can't really say what the current trend is there (this was back in March /April I think)

 

The judge at that time seemed to want to scare them into paying up - he told them he was going for telephone hearing & fast track for my daughter , for £850 ......... and they folded fast........

 

But I think judges have been given instuctions from higher up now, although the MOR would deny it until hell froze over!

[johnnymitch]

Hi Jonny

 

How you doing ? Hope you ok.long time no hear:grin:

 

Chris

 

I feel all the better for you asking , Chris ,thanks - pm me when you've got time, let's know how you're doing

[Penfold92]

hi there Penfold, can i ask how helpfull was the judge?

ie-did he question you a lot on the bundle and it's details?

 

I thought so. At first, because he did not have the bundle I thought "**** he is going after me to make me slip up", but I think in the end he genuinely felt that he wanted to lift the stay, but needed me to give him something to do this with...I guess that is what he should be doing...lol

I will wait and see what happens now with the adjournment and how long it takes to get the next hearing, then when that happens what he thinks to the arguments I put forward and the fact that the Defence is just a standard one and the fact they did not want to negotiate on his instruction. I hope I get the same Judge that's all...

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Well just got my adjourned date in.....

 

8th January! LOL I cannot believe it was adjourned for that long. Anyway at least he has seen my stuff now because he put a comment in the orders regarding one of my lines. Nothing major, but more importantly to let me know he had the bundle now.

 

Oh well sit and wait till then...

 

Penfold

[Castlebest]

is it a proper hearing this time or another telephone one ?

 

as for the date its happening more and more these dates are going into next year... if you win your appeal your case hearing date is likely to be after the test case's first instance judgment

 

pete

[Penfold92]

is it a proper hearing this time or another telephone one ?

 

as for the date its happening more and more these dates are going into next year... if you win your appeal your case hearing date is likely to be after the test case's first instance judgment

 

pete

 

Hi ya Pete,

 

Same telephone jobby...And yes the hearing will be after the initial Test case hearing so no idea how that effects anything, but at least we can try...

Penfold

[Penfold92]

I guess this has already been posted today, but worth the reread...

 

BBC NEWS | Business | OFT revises bank charge guidance

 

Seesm that new developments may be afoot...

 

Penfold

PS and so they bl**dy well should be!!! How can they pay out so much without a defence then just be allowed to stall like this...it is not on...Winge over...

[Castlebest]

Until they get into court all of this sort of thing is just gamesmanship designed to maneuver or put the other side off or even to pacify the people who are watching them (us).

 

I assume as the silly statements have stopped from the OFT their legal team are now in charge of any statements and press releases .

 

pete

[Penfold92]

OK guys,

 

Technically my telephone hearing will still be going ahead today at 10.40am. However, our good friends at DG have not contacted me with regards setting up the telephone hearing like they did for the first one, so...

 

I think they will not be calling, if that is the case I have dropped off a letter to be stuck before the Judge at the time of the hearing to tell him to set aside the stay based on this breach of the Courts directions and the fact my arguements were good enough anyway...

 

Well we'll see in 30 mins or so...In the meantime has there been any further developments in the last month that add weight to lifting the stay?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

I got it wrong it was supposed to be 10.50am, but then they have to connect up 5 mins before, or at least they did last time...

 

So I recon it is a dead duck....Will the court ask me to apply to set aside again, or is this part of my original application? Actually i think I just answered my own question...

 

So in theory this should be set aside now as they have not attended...

 

Let's see...

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

I have just rung the court and apparently HSBC told them they were ringing and it looks like they may be trying a trick here, lucky I put my letter in this morning to the Ushers at the Court!

 

I have rung again and it is gone 10.50am and apparently HSBC did not ring back or at least not yet...Oh this is annoying not knowing anything...I did tell the girl to check the Ushers gave my letter to the Judge at least he will know that I was aware and that they had not connacted me in case they try a sly one...

 

Penfold

[johnnymitch]

It is annoying, Penfold - if it was you or me messing the courts about like that - the case would just be struck out summarily. But these smooth-talking legal eagles may lie their way out of it yet again. Let's hope not.

Keep us posted please...........

[Penfold92]

Thanks Jonny,

 

I know these guys are incredible. Anyway no-one called me and so I hope the Judge got my letter and he will therefore agree to my application to set aside the stay based on hardship and non compliance to the Courts Orders. Unless the banks are so cocky that they know the Master of Rolls has granted them carte blanche to get everything stay irrespective of the case...Surely not...

 

Rant over now, I will call the court tomorrow and see what the Judge has said as there are no notes on the system as yet...

 

Penfold

[jansus]

watching with interest Penfold- lets hope for once the parties obeying the proceedures are rewarded. Not those wasting the courts valuable time.

 

Jan

[Penfold92]

Bless, I just got home to find their skeleton argument against the stay (exactly as before) sitting on my doorstep. I assume that that without organising the hearing would not pursuade the judge against setting aside the stay?

 

Penfold

[johnnymitch]

We can but wait and see for the moment , Penfold - hope you've got a judge that's fed up with the banks messing the system around - but I still think a blanket instruction 'came down from above' as it were, so these kind of judges are as rare as rockin' horse s**t these days LOL

[Castlebest]

Bless, I just got home to find their skeleton argument against the stay (exactly as before) sitting on my doorstep. I assume that that without organising the hearing would not persuade the judge against setting aside the stay?

 

Penfold

 

Just cant see what good this does their case... they failed to comply with the courts directions and by sending this to you they have confirmed they did it on purpose and it was premeditated.

 

pete

[abroadgirl]

hi seeing your thread i thought this may help you as i was in court yesterday 8th jany (my own thread is abroadgirl v abbey all welcome)

 

 

this is how it went, we arrived at the court about 30 minutes early booked in and sat down to wait, after about 15 minutes a very smartly dressed lady came over to us and introduced herself as Mrs. ? Newstead ( sorry I have forgotten her christian name )and said that she was representing Abbey. She then handed us three documents reffering to other case that had lost their stay applications. The first on the Human Rights argument, ( 1 case ) the second on the Overriding Objective argument ( 3 cases ) and the third Balance of Convenience/ In the Alternative ( 4 cases. . On these she would base he objections. At ten past two we were called to the Judges Chambers, all very informal where we introduced ourselves to the Judge, who bore a remarkable resemblance to Paul Daniels In fact I kept expecting him to sau " you are going to like this, not a lot, but you will like it" LOL (me) explained that it was her wish that I speak on her behalf and this was agreed, somewhat reluctantly by Abbey`s Council (she seemed miffed when Judge asker her if she was a barrister, so presumably the sent a fairly large gun ), any how I asked if judge minded if I read out skeleton argument as I really had not had great amount of time to prepare more arguments. He decided that they would be quicker reading it for themselves , he got through his fairly quickly, but Ms Abbey Rep was slower and making copious notes, He then asked me if I had any further to add I replied that I felt it prob. for best that if there were any questions I would endevour to answer these he agreed and queyed one or two minor points and asked Abbey if she had any and she replied this is all new and was unprepared. judge then asked me if I had any other reason why stay should be lifted in view of test case startin on monday and expected to be settled in 8 days , the way he asked the question that the only answer I could give was no without making a fool of my self. he then went into general conversation abot test case, how some arguments had already been ruled on in many cases and he would not go counter to these rulings he then cross examined Abbey re taking charges from benefits saying there was no guidance for him on this issue, abbey jumped in here and produced book of relevant legislation and quoted sections we had used and stated "in my opinion these sections refer to loan sharks, unscupulious hp companies and other undesirables having access to clients funds , like pension book [problem] that used to go on" and banks remarked the judge to wich she made no reply. Judge then said he would not rule on this issue as case must be decided in high court by someone taking back to court specificaly to stop them taking these charges and nat as part of a claim. (was this some advice I am wondering) he then informed us that he would not lift the stay for several reason but mainly the close date of test case, and that he had been incontact with Abbey in regard to this and other cases and they had said they would appeal decision pending out come of test case so really there was no point in lifting stay other than to waste everyones time. so there we go we did not win but do not feel that we lost either, and went away both of us with the impression that had the test case not been so near then we would have won He was very symathetic to us, and at times short with Abbey rep. Oh and before I forget after he gave his ruling I asked about altering mrs x (me)claim to which he agreed and stated that he would record this in his ruling, Abbey were not keen, saying that we could ask at later date to amend claim but he insisted no I will enter it in ruling and then mrs xxx (me) can just send amendment to the court to be attached to claim. I asked if another N244 application would be required and again he said no, just send polite letter to court.

 

So we didn`t get stay set aside, What I think the DJ law was telling us is that he is in agreement with our view on what this sections mean, but that someone has to take the banks to court for taking charges from their account on this count only and not as a part of a small claim to get charges refunded. That way a definative ruling can be made clarifying this grey area. Abbey rep was NOT impressed with a lot of his observations on this subject.

now i feel i want to go all the way and go too the courts about the ruleing of the benefits etc.

 

also the judge said before he started that he HAD read my paperwork and that for his reasons he sympathies with me and ghee i carnt think of the other word he said I think it was respect, what it was i felt he was for me & my hubby and i really thought he was going to lift the stay

he turn to abbey rep and said abbey was wrong at at fault she sat reading the notes and makeing points before we went in and that i thought oh god look at all them etc i looked at stone and bless he looked at me nodded with a smile as much as to say dont worry love we have alot more to go on than her lol

but she didnt point anything out apart from what stone had said but i had to laugh to myself as when but when they were reading the papers that stone gave to them the dj had read and then glanced at the rest and we all sat there waiting for the rep abbey think her name was jen, to finish reading hers she really read most of it as she kept looking at the judge then carried on now n then she would look up at the rep then she just glanced throu the rest and kinda give a sie, so she didnt read the rest as she must have felt embarresed all waiting for her heeheehehehe

we all left at about nearly 3pm so we were in a while with dj law he was smaller than me im only 5 1 with a stretch abbey rep must have felt at a loss well thats how she looked to me anyway

 

wait for it

are you allowed to shake there hands? Judges I mean

well guess what

i held my hand out to shake his hand

he turn to abbey rep and said abbey was wrong at at fault she sat reading the notes

i held my hand out to shake his hand

i wanted to give him a what we call a proper hand shake omg that dont sound write hahahaha

and his hand shake to me you would say it wasnt a genuine one he shook my hand like the queen does finger tips if u know what i mean

yes I shook the judges hand hahahahahahahah

arh well

if i am write he also said he felt that the case want strong enough to have the stay lifted although he sided with me as i only told the truth and that with the oft case being near etc

so all in all it was in fav for me so now I will have to wait for the results of the oft test case if the banks loose then we will be paid if the banks win we all have lost so I guess we are hopeing that the judges will rule in favor that the charges which now the banks are calling fees are not fair

keep listning to the news etc and it will I guess be in the papers so the court cases start on Monday 14th jany for 8 days…………………………..

lol abg

[Penfold92]

Hi and thanks for the posts guys,

 

I have rung the Court and they cannot find the file at the momment but the lady thinks it has been adjorned for another hearing.

 

Now if it has been adjorned for another telephone hearing to set aside the stay - How do I go about appealing that as HSBC have breached Court Directions and caused more delays for nothing after all they posted the skeleton arguement didn't they...LOL

 

If he has adjorned to a hearing date (for the case itself) as long as it is past the test case (which maybe the case) then hunky dory that will do nicely...

 

Somehow I recon the decision has gone in favour of the Bank...Even though it is my application adn the other side breached the rules...just not justice is it really...

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

I just DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!! I have phoned the Court to see if they found the file yet and the Judge has asked for the hearing to be relisted...

 

This is ridiculous, how is this justice. So basically the Banks can just ignore Court directions and delay the hearings over and over?

 

Now I am pi**ed indeed!

 

Penfold

[Castlebest]

Hiya Prabs, do you know if your judge has asked for another telephone hearing or is he actualy booking court time?

 

pete

[Penfold92]

Hiya Prabs, do you know if your judge has asked for another telephone hearing or is he actualy booking court time?

 

pete

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

I have not seen the order, but I (at this moment) cannot see the advantage of either.

 

IMHO the defence should have been struck out for non compliance of the Court Order ESPECIALLY as they managed to send a skeleton arguement in...

 

 

Prabs

[Audreygreeneyes]

IMHO the judge is just stalling, he is making it look like he is allowing your case to move forward!!!! he knows you will nto be alloted a slot before the test case starts........... and that very possibly by the time your hearing/telephone conference is reallocated this whole sorry business wil have gone away and he will have his court back:)

 

as I have said several times in the past few months I really dont see it gettting into court.........an 11th hour deal will be struck...... but then again I could be wrong.....

 

any prabs, I know how frustrating and extremly unfair it is, as far as this topic goes, there is only one winner the banks, the courts own cpr do not apply in these cases but big business does............:)

[Penfold92]

I agree completely and know how frustrated you were at your hearing. I will be appealing as I feel this has to go further. How can this be allowed...

 

Just not cricket...

 

Penfold

[stonedecroze]

If you have got a hearing, argue your case on abuse of process. If the dj is fed up with the banks attitude he will listen to what you have to say. Several claims have been won this on the Lincoln curuit and I believe it is refered to as the Lincoln decision. there are at least 3 instances on this site. if it is not mentioned on your application if you have a section headed Defendants conduct , a reasonable judge should accept it. In ABG`s recent hearing the banks rep tried to have it ruled inadmissable as there was no mention of it on N244 application but judge ruled that as it was alluded to in the earlier mentiond section he would hear my argument. Good luck, Stone