Penfold V Barclays (Woolwich) No agreement and taken to Court

[Penfold92]

How can I do that as I know they responded n the 27th Nov and so the court has the witness statement already? I doubt they will appeal as they have submitted the witness statement (you guys have already seen the content) and that does not contain any evidence so they are not overly put out by this. The only thing that is promising is the despite requesting and obtaining an extension to that date, which certainly implies that the Judge agreed with my view of wasting time etc that I put in the application so hopefully he will be not happy with their actions. I belive this will aid and simplify my case of proving that they have not done things correctly and so PERHALPS I can get the unfair bit through....

 

Penfold

[lookinforinfo]

Even if you get the unfair bit through, I cannot see the Judge giving you your

cash back. For that to happen you need to settle before the trial if you can.

[Penfold92]

Even if you get the unfair bit through, I cannot see the Judge giving you your

cash back. For that to happen you need to settle before the trial if you can.

 

Lookingforinfo,

 

What do you suggest then? I cannot think of anything else I can do now as I have given them all the info, the Judge has given them every chance too and they are just not cooperating...With me anyway.

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

Penfold - you're in denial...

 

The order was specific. It says they haven't submitted a defence despite being given more time to provide one. It says they can't submit a defence without permission from the Court now. The order becomes effective in 7 days unless they ask for it to be set aside etc. To get the order overturned they will have to submit the defence with their application - and within seven days...

 

It is unlikely that they will be able to do that (though not impossible).

 

At the end of the seven days (I'd say two weeks) you apply for a default Judgment in the absence of a defence.

 

You are in a horse race with only one horse on the track (yours) after seven days.

 

I'm afraid to say that you've almost won - but by default (I hope that doesn't take an ounce of pleasure away from you) We shouldn't count chickens yet, but there's nothing wrong in making a rough estimate of the number of chickens at this stage ;-)

[Edz11]

Oh - & start working out the costs so far. Hours spent researching etc and direct costs such as parking, travel etc.

[Penfold92]

To get the order overturned they will have to submit the defence with their application - and within seven days...

 

It is unlikely that they will be able to do that (though not impossible).

 

At the end of the seven days (I'd say two weeks) you apply for a default Judgment in the absence of a defence.

 

You are in a horse race with only one horse on the track (yours) after seven days.

 

I'm afraid to say that you've almost won - but by default (I hope that doesn't take an ounce of pleasure away from you) We shouldn't count chickens yet, but there's nothing wrong in making a rough estimate of the number of chickens at this stage ;-)

 

 

But Edz,

 

They have already submitted the witness statement, just because it was late the Judge has not seen it yet...Does this mean he will ignore it or they need to apply and resubmit the witness statement?

 

Thanks for the support and kind words, and I truely hope you are right,....

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

You got a witness statement on 28/11/07. The Court Order is dated 4/12/07. The order says they haven't provided any evidence yet (which meant the Court hadn't received any on that date). They now can't use evidence without leave of the Court. They have until 11/12/07 to appeal against the order (+ service).

 

No appeal = the order stands.

 

Just shows how you have to be careful with dates and times. I saw someone applying for a CCJ set aside this morning and the application was refused as the defence was 39 minutes (yes, minutes) late...

[Penfold92]

Hi Edz,

 

So would it be safe to say they have until next Friday (14th Dec) to apply to set aside etc? I got my order on Saturday so fair service would be the same sort of time scale. Bear in mind the court hearing is the 20th December and with the backlog at Luton court the Judge will probably not see it before that date anyway so they run a huge risk in applying to set aside in case it is not seen before that date.

 

Am I right on this? If so then I agree with Edz that I am in a very good position.

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

Depends if it was sent first or second class. Assuming it was second and work on 17 December. Nothing in by that date then apply that day for Judgment. I agree the timescales are tight and it may well be that you have to apply for default judgment on 20th.

[Penfold92]

Hi,

 

OK I have rung the court up and the lady seemed puzzled too at the Judges order. She agreed that given the backlogs at the court even if Barclays tried to appeal their application would not be seen before the 20th anyway! I said "so that means they cannot enter a defence then?" She said" basically, yes!”

 

So how about this letter to Barclays litigation to persuade them to cough up in advance and avoid an embarrassing hearing?

 

Dear Mr. Barclays,

RE: Claim Number: 7LUXXXX – Penfold V Woolwich

 

I trust that you have received the Court Order dated 4th December 2007 regarding the “debarred from adducing its own evidence at the trial”. For your information these are the figures I have put on the application for the strike out of your defence. I will be claiming for £1038 in payments made, £260 in Court fees now and interest under section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at a rate of 8% a year from the 28/05/1998 to the hearing date of 20/12/2007 giving a figure of £516.43. I will also be asking the Judge to agree to the following small amount of costs incurred as well to the amount of £41.70 (£19.80 photocopying, £16.60 postage and £5.30 travel and parking costs). This gives a total judgment requested of £1856.13.

 

It is a great shame that we could not have come to a mutually agreeable solution, but in any event I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and look forward to seeing you in person on the 20th December 2007 at our hearing and to see what the Judge has to make of Barclays non compliance to not only its obligations to me as a supposed debtor, the Law in general, but also to the Court’s own orders.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

Got to go out - will reply later

[Edz11]

To be honest I wouldn't bother doing anything at this stage. I've had a good think about this. They have time to appeal - and it is possible that it has been appealed against but is in the backlog at the Court. But I ythink that is unlikely. The pressure is on them. Was your notice delivered 1st or 2nd class? (Tactics)...

[Penfold92]

To be honest I wouldn't bother doing anything at this stage. I've had a good think about this. They have time to appeal - and it is possible that it has been appealed against but is in the backlog at the Court. But I ythink that is unlikely. The pressure is on them. Was your notice delivered 1st or 2nd class? (Tactics)...

 

I think 2nd class as Sat was the 8th and the order was done on the 4th... So you really think I should not let them know how much I want with costs etc? May make them put up? I was not going to send yet anyway. Was thinking of sending on Thursday for them to get on Friday...

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

The timing is so tight. If the Court date was two weeks further away then I'd say apply for summary Judgment after 13th. They have until 13th to appeal against that order (thursday). You need two weeks notice of an application for summary judgment (as they haven't submitted a defence). Sit back, with a large drink, and wait until 20th. I think they may well write to you before that date "not economic etc etc". If that happens then you ask for summary judgent with costs on 20th. There's a pretty good chance you'll be their on your own with the Judge... They won't turn up - or will make a token appearance - as they can only ask for more time.

 

They've had six months to prove that you are wrong and haven't been able to do so. Forget about it for one week then we can cover all bases.

[Penfold92]

OK Edz,

 

I will not write to them and wait until Thursday 13th and then call the Court and see if they have applied for the order to be set aside or try to get their 3 page withness statement through...

 

Will post on Thursday afternoon then and we'll see where we are at.

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Oh one thing Edz, they have nOT appealed yet, they DID submit the witness statement late, but the Judge has not seen it yet, but according to the Order now, they need to appeal it and the witness statement will not be just accepted. At least that is how I have understood it...

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

OK - sorry just re-read. It won't be summary on 20th as that would mean there wasn't a trial!

 

You're winning.

[Penfold92]

OK - sorry just re-read. It won't be summary on 20th as that would mean there wasn't a trial!

 

You're winning.

 

 

Hi Edz,

So send the letter to the Bank? You know the funny thing is I actually want them to turn up just so I can have a go...

The only niggling thing in the back of my mind is why the judge has not just gone for the strike out and just barred them from submitting their evidence...

Is he just assuming that by doing that they will settle and so he does not need to make the decision as he is leaving it in the hands of the Bank?

Penfold

[Edz11]

An unless order would have been tidier but if the Bank produce nothing wihin the seven days then it will be harder for them to get out of the mess that they are in than it would if the sanction was a strike out. If that makes sense?

 

I wouldn't write. You'll hear from them if they're in the right frame of mind. I did suggest making an offer in a previous post. On reflection I'd leave them to stew.

[Penfold92]

mmm....I just feel a letter would turn the pressure up a bit and point out the situation they are in. After the witnes statement they have filed will be ingnored.

 

Even an application received tomorrow would take up till Tues or Wed next week. That would then mean they would have to turn up with the evidence on the 20th, however, as they have already showed they do not have any so not sure what they would turn up with anyway...You're right leave them too it, but how will they know the correct figures?

 

At this stage and in my position, I do not think I will accept anything less than the correct figures...Funny how a few weeks ago I would have accepted enough to cover my costs, now things have changed considerably by their own sloppy time keeping and lack of any evidence at all...

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

You have to remember that it's personal for you - but just a job to them. So "pressure" doesn't have that meaning to them as it does to you.

 

They could just possibly come up with everything that is needed for 20th. They will have to persuade a Judge to accept it and then you'd be asking for an adjournment so you can consider it. And if they do try that and it needs an adjournment you want costs for it. But, they have produced nothing so far and I doubt they will.

[Penfold92]

You have to remember that it's personal for you - but just a job to them. So "pressure" doesn't have that meaning to them as it does to you.

 

They could just possibly come up with everything that is needed for 20th. They will have to persuade a Judge to accept it and then you'd be asking for an adjournment so you can consider it. And if they do try that and it needs an adjournment you want costs for it. But, they have produced nothing so far and I doubt they will.

 

 

Hi Edz,

 

I think for all the effort that will now be required and the lack of evidence that they can actually produce they will not bother. But who knows...If they read this site they will know the figures so I guess I should not worry about that. I will keep checking with the court to see if they put an application in, but that is extra costs for them and I just cannot see that now.

 

Thanks for all your advice and especially the support and that goes for Alan and Lookingforinfo too!

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Quick update,

 

Woolwich did not file any application this week so there is no chance of an application going through next week before the hearing. I spoke to a Lawyer friend of mine who said quite simply he would love to get an order like I got for any of his clients.

 

I wrote to Barclays litigation just to remind them of the figures and we'll see if they send anything before the hearing failing that, do I just turn up and ask for judgement on the basis of no defence/ evidence?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

[Edz11]

I hope you're not in denial any more...

 

If they trurn up it will to grovel and why pay someone to grovel for you? It feels like it may well be a no show. The hearing will be relatively brief and the Judge has to consider your claim and contrast and compare it with the defence.... (but there isn't one). He can still pick holes in your claim, if he's a mind to do so. But I wouldn't bet on that.

 

It is still possible they will try and produce a bunny out of the hat at the last minute. So Bank (ho ho) on the worst and then you aren't unprepared!

[Penfold92]

Hi Edz,

 

I am not in denial anymore...But I am a great believer in nothing is easy and I am ready and waiting for them...I cannot wait to hear why it has taken 8-9 months to produce nothing....Not a statement, not an agreement, not a printout of anysort. I also cannot wait for an explaination for not producing the evidence when they were supposed to, then why they did not produce it fo rthe date they asked for...They cannot say the post as their letter to me was dated several days AFTER the second deadline!

 

Still with Xmas post I expect it will be a no show. If that is the case what is the proceedure for? I have never been to court before...

 

Penfold