Can a DCA pursue someone who moves abroad

[StuffedbyNatwest]

Progress is slow but sure! I have received the CCA from the French DCA to gether with the Terms and Conditions that relate to the Natwest Credit card. An earlier post by someone suggested this was acceptable

 

BUT Clause 10 (b) of the Terms and Conditions states " If your address is in Scotland , Scottish Law shall apply to this agreement. If you live elsewhere English Law applies to this agreement"

 

Now, I live in France so me thinks that English Law applies. Would this not negate any attempt by the French DCA to pursue me for the alleged debt in a French Court?

 

The alleged debt appears to have been properly assigned to Arrow Global but I cannot see any justification for this assignment to cancel the condition of English Law in favour of French Law for a firm of DCAs they appoint in France

 

So if there is anyone here who can shed more light I would be grateful. If I am correct it may be that debts incurred in the UK under English Law cannot have the Court of Jurisdiction changed to a foreign country unless this is specifically provided for in the CCA agreement and associated Terms and Conditions.

 

To add more confusion, as papers cannot be served on someone outside the UK for a UK matter, would all legal attempts to collect money from folk who have moved abroad be a waste of time.

 

I await the brains on CGA to help me. Thanks

 

(below is the link to the original thread)

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/69776-natwest-arrow-global.html

[dannyboy660]

Hi Stuffed!!

 

Just to recap on my opinion:-

 

To chase in France or elsewhere in EU they need an EEO (European Enforcement Order).

 

To get an EEO they must have an existing uncontested judgment made by a court in the member state from whence the claim originated.

 

If you are no longer resident in the UK, then they can not obtain a judgment in UK. They can not obtain a judgment from a French court, because the contract is governed by UK law. A bit of a stalemate situation.

 

They can do the usual DCA tricks, but the risk of any court action is very small, if not impossible.

[StuffedbyNatwest]

Hi Danny

 

A star as usual !

 

You enforce my understanding which seems to make the collection of debts from folk incurring them in the UK then moving abroad virtually impossible.

 

Maybe I should ask what they paid for my debt and agree a settlement (sorry joking!)

[dannyboy660]

Maybe I should ask what they paid for my debt and agree a settlement (sorry joking!)

 

 

Well the decision is entirely yours, but that sounds like a good idea to me!!

 

Ask them for a copy of the original UK judgment. Say you were not aware a judgment existed and had you been aware of court action on this account, you would have contested it because... (use your imagination a bit here - charges, perhaps??). Ask them for the reference of the EEO because you want to contact the issuing court to ask for... (leave to appeal, perhaps)??

 

Makes it clear to them you know what you are on about, and you know that no such document exists (we hope!!). I think it's called Brinkmanship. The bargaining chips are well and truly in your favour - "We could settle this now if you'll accept xxx, and give me something in writing to prove the debt is satisfied.....etc"

 

Everyone's a winner, and your conscience is clear.

 

 

Don't take my word as gospel, that's just an opinion, but the theory is sound. It's your call now.

[dannyboy660]

Hi,

 

As we suspected, it seems the new EEO is just as it says :-

 

The Law Society

 

..an instrument to enforce an existing CCJ in an EU member state.

 

 

I've not read all the small print of the EEO, but it does very little to change things if a CCJ does not already exist in the country of origin. I began to wonder if it might now be possible to get a UK judgment using your address in France, but it seems very unlikely especially if the claim is defended. The fact UK is outside the 'eurozone' works in your favour. ;-)

 

There's a surprisingly large amount of info on this subject on the net, I guess people are moving around far more in recent years than ever before, and so things had to change eventually.

 

Bon Chance.

[StuffedbyNatwest]

Thanks Danny

I think I read somewhere that a claim cannot be made in a UK Court if the creditor has been abroad for more than 3 years. This also applies I believe to being made bankrupt. Your link does refer to a possible judgment being enetered if the creditor does not attend the hearing, but I suspect they need to show I was aware of any impending hearing, which I am certainly not aware of. Natwest did originally tell me no Court claim had been filed so it just remains to find out if a UK Comapny can raise a claim in another country for an agreement that was clearly executed under English Law.

 

Think I will fire another shot across the bows of the French DCA and see how they respond.

 

A bientot

[dannyboy660]

..... so it just remains to find out if a UK Comapny can raise a claim in another country for an agreement that was clearly executed under English Law.

 

Here's the start of yet another trail for you to study....

 

SCADPlus: European enforcement order for uncontested claims

 

 

On another thread, a poster who's name escapes me made a reference to a company called Transcom part of Arrow and the "Sallie Mae" group (USA again...). Transcom claim that using EEO they can obtain a judgment anywhere, and pursue you anywhere. If you read up the relevant sections in the EEO regulations agreed by member states, you'll find that EEO can apply only to uncontested claims, and where judgment already exists in the member state where the claim arose. I imagine this will prevent a defendant using the law of one country to try and overrule another. Not in the spirit of a United Europe.

 

I sometimes wonder if these US dominated companies deliberately misinterpret the law, or just put this carp out to confuse people. Or perhaps they think because they have US backing they can just ignore EU laws????......Strange lot.

[StuffedbyNatwest]

Yes I remember that thread too.

 

I am going to contact the French DCA and ask for a copy of the original judgement and the EEO (which from your link seems quite complicated to get).

 

Then, as I have never been advised of any court hearing, and the fact I dispite the amount, see if I can get this all into perspective

[StuffedbyNatwest]

Morning Danny Seems its just you and I on this thread!

I was hoping to hear from other folks who have moved abroad and got into similar difficluties but maybe its me alone!

[phill123]

i stuffedby natwest i was in the same situation with u but the other way around i lived in france and move to the Uk , owning quite a bit of money to a french bank overdraft which i wasn't aware of it until my card was cancelled. however, yhe debt is unenforceABLE HAS WE ARE NOT GOVERNED BY uK LAW BUT BY THE FRENCHH ONE, so don't worry too much about it . however having said that if u owed quite a large sum of money, then iu will be better to seek some legal advice as rthey can pursue u although very expensive to them . if i was u ignore them and stuffed them !!!!! lol seven years ago i received a phone called wanted an adress to put me on bankrupcy, which i didn't and i haven't terceived anything as i didn't have a french adress and by so wasn't governed by the french law.

[dannyboy660]

Hi Phill123,

 

I think you have just underlined the point that now is the best time in our recent history to spread your wings and take the risk.

 

It's a business paradise.

 

The EU laws are very carefully constructed in such a way it is impossible to blame Poles/Romanians coming to UK for employment, when Brits are baling out in their thousands.

 

The only excitement is waiting to see which way the UK will jump...US or EU ???

[phill123]

exactly, the pursue a debt while living in an other country can be quite difficult and expensive as it has legal complexity miny debt in france was only for 400 pounds which is not much but they will try to pursue of owed over 700 pounds and again for a business it is not worth while to pursue this kind of claim . the Uk will oalways be stuck between two influences the Eu and US look culturally wise and european businesses implemented in Uk .... lol

[carless]

Onwards and upwards!

 

Below is part of the e mail from Optima Legal in the UK. Me wonders if he has any knowledge of the process of issuing claims in the UK, for contracts governed by English law against non residents living in France

 

It would be most unkind to rub his nose in it, in particular using specific references that danny and others have given on here!

 

Mr xxxx

In the absence of any settlement proposals from you, proceedings are presently being issued out of the xxxx County Court.

These proceedings will be served upon you directly.

 

The address we have for you in France is XXXXX, France. If this is not correct then please let me know.

I note that you will be defending my client's claim.

Regards

[dannyboy660]

Hi Carless,

 

Scares the hell out of me when i see things like that, but if no CCJ exists then an EEO is out of the question.

 

Do they really think they can get a CCJ at a French address through a UK court?? Looks like the classic scare tactics to me, trying to force you into contact.

 

Let us know if anything develops, and good luck.

[carless]

Hello. I think I understood that the defendant in any county court claim could elect to have the case heard in his/her immediate area, i.e next to where they live. So I suppose I could ask the court to have the case heard in my local court in France?

[phill123]

no thatr tis worng as the LAW THAT YOU ARE GOVERNED IS DIFFERENT THEY CANNNOT Apply english law to a french court, as foirst the civil procedure are differnt and sewcondly the when u soigned the agreemement is was under the CCA 1974 which is not APPLICABLE TO FRENCH LAW DUE TO DIFFERENT CIVIL PART PROCEDURE. they are just trying to intimidate tyou believe i had the same ****. sorry for the word but they cannort sue unless you have a warrant for aRREST MAINLY FOR FRAUD. i know fore this by experience, this totallly illegal as one lwa does not necessary equal to an other one. law and custon differs greatly from france and england as long u don'[t have any legal tie in englkand( e.g. : such an adress) you shoulkd be ok as they canno tpursue u unless they rpove the debt was made in france not in uk . i hope this help. a ccva request is irrelevant unless you have an adrees in UK.

[phill123]

carless u cannot have you defence heard in france due to different law and custom this is illegal , unpractical. european law is quiter clear on this one national law canot be applicable onto an other state., unless it was made in the french counry and governewd by the french law. if not suffed them. theyare on a loosinfg batrttle ground trying to scare u !!!!!

[phill123]

ps county court doesn't exist in france so it will be hard for them to sue on a small claim court lot of bulshxxt. bank doesn;t sue the only thindg they can't do is to report u to the bank of france for bankrupcy which need a french adress. report to them to the trading standard,oft and the FSa.

[nigelo]

hello this is my first time here i have a small problem.I now live in finland been here for 5 years now but i have a bept in uk with loyds bank a jugment has never been filed and i have a bept colection agency from america chacing me can they do anything as this bept is now 5 years old. I was paying them 50 euros a month but now i stoped that but they are getting nasty.

They dont now my address all they have is my e mail address please help.