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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Hi Zubo...

dont mind at all you crossposting :-)

 

just one little point..........can I have the link so I can see what its about

 

dave

 

of course

 

apologies

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources.html#post702982

 

Z

 

I'll add the bit above too in your reply to Pam

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Hi Pam in post 317 you were unsure of signing etc. you didnt quote the whole section

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

rgds

 

Dave

 

Hi

 

The section I was quoting was s127(3) which only mentions a signature by the debtor and so has caused confusion as to whether a document signed only by the debtor but containing all the prescribed terms can be enforced.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

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of course

 

apologies

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources.html#post702982

 

Z

 

I'll add the bit above too in your reply to Pam

 

Hi

 

I think you should take it out again Zubo as I was quoting a different section of the CCA. The problem with putting all these posts in is that there's a danger that the thread just becomes another debate rather than a selection of templates and explanatory notes. PLUS, I'm not saying I'm right on this particular point - only that that's how I interpret it.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Hi pam

 

just had a look at it again..s127 does indeed say as you quote...but it makes reference to s60 / 1 as well...........oh well

 

now I'm confused again, and I was doing so well... time to start taking the happy pills again :-)

 

dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Hi pam

 

just had a look at it again..s127 does indeed say as you quote...but it makes reference to s60 / 1 as well...........oh well

 

now I'm confused again, and I was doing so well... time to start taking the happy pills again :-)

 

dave

 

Hi again

 

Yes it does refer to s60(1) which as you say states that an agreement is improperly executed unless containing all the requirements and signed by both parties, but the confusion arises because s127(3) doesn't specify that the 'document' has to be signed by both - it just says 'by the debtor or hirer' - implying that the court can consider any document, containing all the prescribed terms and signed by the debtor! Do you see what I mean?

 

But other sections of the Act confirm my understanding that an agreement signed only by the debtor (or only by the creditor) is unexecuted and therefore not yet made.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Ive just read s127 (3) twelve times....and its just sinking in.

 

It is VERY contradictory. and as you rightly say it seems to be at the discretion of the judge as long as the relevant terms are present it may only need one sig.......:-(, however s60 is also clear..... have the 2006 amendments become law yet ? I'll have to have a look if they have made any changes.

 

just found this.....2006 act, royal assent 30 mar

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/en2006/ukpgaen_20060014_en.pdf

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Ive just read s127 (3) twelve times....and its just sinking in.

 

It is VERY contradictory. and as you rightly say it seems to be at the discretion of the judge as long as the relevant terms are present it may only need one sig.......:-(, however s60 is also clear..... have the 2006 amendments become law yet ? I'll have to have a look if they have made any changes.

 

just found this.....2006 act, royal assent 30 mar

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/en2006/ukpgaen_20060014_en.pdf

 

Dave

 

Hi

 

Some parts of the amended Act are already in force but the changes to the agreement regulations come into force this month (not sure of date) but any changes will only apply to agreements made after this.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

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whoops.......

 

38. Section 15 repeals sections 127(3) to (5) of the 1974 Act (subsection (5) is

consequential on subsection (3)), which means that a court will have the power to

determine in its discretion whether agreements are enforceable in accordance with

section 127(1) and (2) regardless of the breach in question.

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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My head now officially hurts and I'm off to bed....zzzzzzzz

 

rgs to everyone still awake

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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whoops.......

 

38. Section 15 repeals sections 127(3) to (5) of the 1974 Act (subsection (5) is

consequential on subsection (3)), which means that a court will have the power to

determine in its discretion whether agreements are enforceable in accordance with

section 127(1) and (2) regardless of the breach in question.

 

Dave

 

Hi,

 

Yes it is repealed, but only in relation to post-April agreements. This was done as a result of Wilson v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the poor creditors complaining that the nasty CCA was too mean!! Aaagh! Diddums! :|:-x

 

Regards and Nite, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Hi Lantana

 

I see your point - source of confusion removed! :)

 

Do you agree with my interpretation of executed/unexecuted? Have a read of s62 and 63 and see what you make of it.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Pam and everyone

 

The way I have read the interaction with S127 is that if an agreement is signed by both parties it is executed and therefore both parties are tied to it (ignoring whether the agreement has all the prescribed terms). If either party has not signed it, the agreement is not binding and this is when we refer to it being unexecuted. However S127(3) then says that if it is the debtor that has not signed it but has signed some other document that contains all the prescribed terms then the court can order that the agreement be enforced. So the court has the power to override the legal position of the document. (Presumably this is because the court would otherwise have no power to order enforcement which I think supports what you are trying to say Pam, no signature(s) = no agreement)

 

S62 and S63 deal with the copies that have to be sent at the start of the contract.

 

So if the creditor has not signed it, there is no contract. However they can sign it at any time as it is in their possession EXCEPT that of course many of them have them stored on microfiche and so they cannot sign the original. If they are foolish enough to send an unsigned agreement to the debtor on receipt of a CCA request then I think they are in a very difficult position.

 

The only thing I am unclear on is what happens if they were to sign it at a later stage such as on receipt of a S77-79 request. Assuming they are honest and date it correctly when signing surely up to that date there is no agreement and they cannot charge interest up to the date of signing. The way to find out if they have signed it later is to make a second S77-79 request (you can do this after at least 1 month I think) because they would have to sign it again and it is unlikely the two will match unless they store a signed copy AND remember to retrieve the signed copy when dealing with the second request.

 

Does that make sense?

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The fact is, if they haven't signed it, they cannot say that they have complied with s63.4 or s85, which is my current position with MBNA. They're squirming and keep on messing up with what they send me. In a couple of weeks I'll have them for fraud as well.

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Hi

MONUMENTEE.jpg?t=1174987630

 

The document you have posted up is IMO 100% an application only and definitely not one of those 'grey area' application/credit agreements that are causing problems.

 

There are no prescribed terms whatsoever!!

 

Because I have a wicked streak, I would write and ask them to send a copy of your actual agreement and advise them that if they are unsure which document they should be looking for, that it is the one that has all the prescribed terms, other required terms and statutory statements and is signed by both lender and borrower! :D:D:D

 

It is tempting to accept this piece of cr@p as all that they possess but it's wise to give them another chance, just in case they do have a proper agreement and might produce it at a later date!

 

Regards, Pam

MONUMENTB.jpg?t=1174987476

 

I am in dispute with Monument have ben in correspondence with them, they have sent me what they say is an excecuted cca, but it clearly seems not to be, i received this letter this morning and am not sure what to do next, could you possibly give some ideas,

 

We write further to your letter dated.......

 

We have already sent you a legible copy of the monument conditions reflecting the origional agreement that you entered into with monument.

This represents a true copy for the purposes of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983. It omits, as is permitted by the Regulations, the signature box and any notice of cancellation rights.

 

There is no requirement under the consumer credit act 1974 for us to certify and or to sign this copy agreement and we have not done so.

 

We have also previously sent you a copy of your signed application for your convenience. This is in addition to our obligations under the consumer credit act and demonstrates your agreement to the Monument conditions.

 

I regret your decision to withhold payment to your account, as we disagree with your legal analysis and view the debt enforceable.

As we have complied with our obligation under the credit consumer act, we regard the debt as enforceable and shall continue to pursue the outstanding debt in accordance with our standard recovery process. In the event that our payment requirements are not met, this may involve referring your account to a third party debt collection agency to recover the full balance.

 

the company was Providian when I initially dealed with them, not Monument, yes they sent a part of the application form, definately not the agreement, i have not said I will withhold payment, so they are wrong there, please do you have any help,

 

Regards,

Rinkydinkydoo:-)

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I have told one of my creditors that I am no longer interested in S77/78 other than the fact that they haven't fully complied. What they have supplied has highlighted to me that they hold faulty documentation. I shall need to see the signed copy to confirm that they do hold an enforceable agreement and it is this I am now requesting. The whole 1983 Regulations is a smokescreen. This has now moved on.

I also quoted from the letter someone posted on the CCAA thread (Peterbard?) from Ian Macartney, the Consumer Minister who said

‘If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. The lender should need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, if the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.’

 

No response as yet but you could do something along similar lines

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I have told one of my creditors that I am no longer interested in S77/78 other than the fact that they haven't fully complied. What they have supplied has highlighted to me that they hold faulty documentation. I shall need to see the signed copy to confirm that they do hold an enforceable agreement and it is this I am now requesting. The whole 1983 Regulations is a smokescreen. This has now moved on.

I also quoted from the letter someone posted on the CCAA thread (Peterbard?) from Ian Macartney, the Consumer Minister who said

 

No response as yet but you could do something along similar lines

 

Hi joneshousehold,

do you have a letter that i could change to suit my postition to send to monument, regards,

rinkydinkydoo:)

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I'd say something along the lines:

 

All you have provided to me is a copy of the application form I signed and a copy of your terms and conditions. I accept that you may well believe that this conforms with the 1983 regulations regarding copy agreements, but I am not interested in a copy agreement. I want you, plain and simply, to provide me with a copy of an agreement between myself and monument that is signed by both parties and is enforceable with or without an order of the court. From the documentation you have provided it is evident that you do not hold this, and therefore you have been in breach of section 63.4 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 since the inception of this card, and subsequently are in breach of section 85 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on replacement of the credit token.

 

Be advised in your future correspondence to refer to your dealings with me, not to use what is effectively a template letter that has been incorrectly changed to suit my circumstances.

 

I look forward to hearing from you further, but be advised you still haven't complied with my section 78 request and as such any attempt to enforce the alleged agreement will incur a fine of £2500.00.

 

Any attempt to pass this account to an external debt collection agency is not allowed as the debt is, and will continue to be, in dispute.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Something along those lines, but maybe someone else can add a twopenneth to it?

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Hi all,

I too am fighting welcome over their credit agreement.

What bothers me most is that the office address signed by their rep, is a c/o address, and not the premises on which I signed my agreement. Could this be used as an argument?

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Guest louis wu

Good morning all.

 

If you could spare a few minutes to look at this I would be grateful.

 

I have requested a copy of my CCA under s77. regarding a loan taken out 3 years ago.

 

The 1 page copy I have received HAS the following

 

1 A fixed loan amount.

2 Interest rate

3 Rate/frequency of payments

4 Creditor and debtor signatures (with dates)

5 Document headed as ‘credit agreement regulated by CCA act 1974’ signature box has the same heading (I think its safe to assume that this is an agreement and not an application:( )

 

 

I was a bit disappointed with that, so I examined the document and found these (some is a bit picky)-

 

 

1 No T&C’s

2 2 references to ‘clauses overleaf’ – it’s a 1 sided copy, no clauses supplied.

3 2 illegible areas (small in size, but illegible nonetheless)

4 (very picky clutching at straws time) APR not expressed as a %, just stating this, ‘A.P.R 10.6’ (assume I am no financial expert, 10.6 what?)

5 A ‘right to cancel’ section explaining details will be sent later….No details ever received. QuoteOnce you sign this agreement, you will have a short time to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by us

6 Several references to ‘sharing info’ with other organisations including CRA’s (I am going to look back to earlier references to this in the HUGE CCA thread (somewhere about page 110 I think), as I remember reading something about this not being correct.

 

 

I know the important points are included, I am just wondering if anyone has any thought as to the merits of continuing the ‘discussion’ with the DCA regarding the rest. I am picking up speed on this, but could not put a reasoned argument in front of a judge (YET), but given a few more weeks I think I could give it a go, but obviously, it needs to be a genuine argument, and not just ‘having a go for the sake of it’. I do wonder though, if the DCA will have any idea what I am talking about if I buy some time and learn the act, will they simply let it go, or is that wishful thinking?

 

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

 

Louis

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Louis

 

If there isn't a signed statement from the DCA or loan company stating how much is outstanding, and there are no T&C's or a copy of the clauses overleaf, they haven't complied. We've obviously not seen it, but it sounds like you've been looking for the right things. If you find the reference to sharing data, please post it again as it isn't something I remember and its all ammunition. You should write to them saying they haven't complied, but it sounds like you're not going to gain much time by doing that. Box against the shadows for a week or two and read like a demon!

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Guest louis wu

m55, I am trying to catch up FAST, but your all giong too quick for me:)

 

I will continue looking for the shared info post, but its *needle meets haystack* time and I may have imagined it:-? .

 

Thanks for the reply

 

Louis

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Guest louis wu

This was posted by acerfan post 1601 on CCA agreements thread

 

QUOTE

 

Has anyone got any ideas on how the implications of Section 59 could be used?

 

59 Agreement to enter future agreement void

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

(2) Regulations may exclude from the operation of subsection (1) agreements such as are described in the regulations.

 

As credit checks are performed and credit limits set after an application has been received, surely a signed credit card application binds a person into a prospective regulated agreement.

 

I know this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but didn't seen any definite conclusions on this.

 

 

 

 

I believe this is what I read/remembered. It don't think this can be applied to my situation, but may help others, although I cannot recall it being discussed at length.(at least not up to page 145 anyway...reading continues)

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Rinky

My letter was a bit of a mammoth affair as I pointed out all the areas of difficulty.

 

I started off by detailing the earlier correspondence and setting out what had been sent and when plus I highlighted how the definitions and explanations by them had changed (basically they firstly said the application form was the agreement but I then went back and said it did not have all the prescribed terms so was unenforceable. They then sent a copy of T&C's and said that was the agreement but it is unsigned and still not correct) I then went through all the requirements in the OFT report to make an enforceable agreement and listed everywhere they had gone wrong in my particular case. That was where the letter got lengthy and you will need to have a look at your own documents to make your letter relevant. I think there is a link to the OFT report earlier in this thread but if you can't find it post again and I will find it for you

 

I then said

Although you have made a lot of reference to the requirements of the 1983 Statutory Instrument, this is not the whole story. In order to consider any action for recovery, you will need to supply the courts with a true copy of the original agreement complete with all requirements to be able to show the courts that you have an enforceable agreement. I would remind you of the contents of the letter from Ian Macartney, the Consumer Minister who said

 

‘If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. The lender should need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, if the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.’

 

You need to supply me a copy of the original signed agreement, not to comply with the requirements of Section 78 but because your earlier replies have highlighted to me that the documents you hold are faulty and there is no agreement in existence. I did point this out to you in my letter of xxxx. I find it strange that you have chosen to ignore the main point of my letter and have chosen instead to refer to something that is no longer part of the correspondence.

 

Despite your penultimate paragraph in which you state that you regard the debt as enforceable, it is very clear that this is not a tenable statement. The law clearly shows that the documentation is so badly flawed that it can never become enforceable even under an order of the court. I therefore reiterate my earlier comment that I require from you a full refund of all moneys I have erroneously been required to pay to you.

 

Please also note that as the ‘agreement’ is unenforceable you are not able to pursue me for the debt and this includes telephone calls, correspondence requesting payment or formal notices about the unenforceable debt. You should be aware that I am withdrawing my agreement for you to telephone me and all my data must be removed from your records. Any attempt to contact me to pursue any ‘debt’ will be reported to the relevant authorities as unlawful and as harassment. Further you do not hold any enforceable authority to divulge any of my data to any third parties be this either a credit reference agency, a sub-contractor or any other person to whom you wish to transfer or assign rights. I would remind you that as there are no rights under this documentation, they cannot be assigned or divulged to any third party.

Hope that helps. Unfortunately as you get further down the line of correspondence there is less opportunity for a template or standard letter. Your letter will have to reflect what has happened to you. Good luck

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