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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card


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Pam are you interpreting S127(3) as saying

 

...whether or not in the prescribed form....and

...whether or not complying with the regulations under S60(1)

I read it to say the first of the above but the second to say it must still comply with S60(1). As it is not wholly clear and the Act is basically set up to protect the consumer, then the more generous interpretation is appropriate as it is in line with the intention of the Act (this is a reflection of Mrs Wilson's cases I think)

 

So to comply with the regulations of S60(1) that document signed by the debtor would need

a) the rights and duties conferred or imposed - I read this to mean all the terms & conditions (plus the rights under the Act?)

b) the amount and rate of the total charge for credit - which would be your points 1, 2 & 3 in post number 117

c) the protections and remedies available under the Act - this includes all the boxes that state YOUR RIGHTS etc (perhaps not necessarily in boxes or in places stipulated)

d) any other matters the Sec of State thinks desirable - so anything in the later regs

 

I would also try and argue that the phrase '...itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement...' means there must be all the terms where they are prescribed by regulations.

 

I believe this may mean that the document signed by the debtor must have more than your list. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

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Mind you when I look at it again I see the phrase is 'whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under S60(1)..' whereas if it meant what I thought it did it would say 'but' or 'whilst' instead of 'and' between prescribed form and complying.

 

However it does go on to say 'itself containing all the prescribed terms' which per the definitions prescribed terms means those in the regulations.

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Mind you when I look at it again I see the phrase is 'whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under S60(1)..' whereas if it meant what I thought it did it would say 'but' or 'whilst' instead of 'and' between prescribed form and complying.

 

However it does go on to say 'itself containing all the prescribed terms' which per the definitions prescribed terms means those in the regulations.

 

Hi

 

Yes, if you exclude all the text in brackets it reads:

 

....unless a document itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer.

 

Of course the more serious the omissions the more likely it is that the court would either refuse an enforcement order or vary or discharge some/all of the debtor's obligations.

 

If anyone gets to court with an improperly executed agreement that would fall into this 'discretion' category it is essential that they remind the judge that the CCA must be read and applied in favour of the debtor (a lot of county court judges have little/no experience of the CCA's complexities or the statutory intent).

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

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Hi

 

I understand and agree (in principle) with your assertion that an application is pre-contractual and therefore cannot stand as an agreement.

 

However, I still don't see how we can argue our way out of this (if it gets to court):

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document it would seem any document will suffice(whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer(note it's not crucial that the creditor may not have signed it) (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

 

 

So the court will consider any old document, written in any form provided that it has all the prescribed terms and the debtor's signature. The minimum requirement is therefore:

 

 

 

1) a credit limit or statement as to how/when it will be determined

 

2) Interest rate

 

3) rate/frequency of repayments

 

4) Debtor's signature

 

 

So, if you have been sent any form of document that contains these requirements you are not on safe ground!!

 

Hi

I must admit i am a little confused about this application/agrement debate.

could you exlain why this doesn't apply by the way there is also a similar statement in the earlier regs.

 

Regards, Pam

 

10. - (1) Schedule 1 (information to be contained in documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements other than modifying agreements) shall be amended as follows.

 

(2) For paragraph 1 substitute -

 

1.All types. " (1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, a heading in one of the following forms of words -

  • (a) "Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";
     
    (b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";
     
    © "Fixed-Sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or
     
    (d) "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974",

as the case may require.

 

(2) If none of the headings in 1(a) to (d) above are applicable a heading in the following form of words - "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

If it doesn't it doesnt conform to whichever of the regs says correct form it is unenfrceable without.etc

 

Regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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HI again

I seem to have left off the intro

I am a little confused as to the reason for the applicatio/agrement debate.Am I missing something see above.

 

Regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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HI

I dont know if this will clarify it is an arlier posting of mine look at the underlined bits

 

 

post 1189 loan company cannot****

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I am sorryJ

 

I could never work that link thig i have put on the post number instead it is a copy of al etter i recieved from the dti a little while ago when i was questioning the validity of responses to section 77 requests.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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10. - (1) Schedule 1 (information to be contained in documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements other than modifying agreements) shall be amended as follows.

 

(2) For paragraph 1 substitute -

 

1.All types. " (1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, a heading in one of the following forms of words -

  • (a) "Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";
     
    (b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";
     
    © "Fixed-Sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or
     
    (d) "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974",

as the case may require.

 

(2) If none of the headings in 1(a) to (d) above are applicable a heading in the following form of words - "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

If it doesn't it doesnt conform to whichever of the regs says correct form it is unenfrceable without.etc

 

Regards

Peter

 

Hi Peter

 

If this heading or any other required terms (other than prescribed terms) are omitted from the document it is improperly executed and enforceable only on a court order, NOT unenforceable!

 

This is then where the judge's discretion comes in - to allow enforcement or not, or to vary the agreement, depending on what has been omitted.

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Here try this link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-485937.html

Yes Peter, I remember this letter and (with my many thanks) I have in fact referred to it in my correspondence. It's the reason why I think the application is not an agreement. I had hoped we could try to get some statutory backing for the statement by the DTI. We seem to be skirting around the Act and Regulations but I think we still haven't identified why the DTI statement is correct. I expect if anyone goes to court they will have to show the statutory backing and produce a DTI letter to support our interpretation. It would just make our claims easier if the Act was clearer. But then that's just Utopia I suspect!

 

Thanks for reminding me of the DTI letter.

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Hi Typo

 

Unusual tor me but i did put the word without after what should have beeen the word enforceable(is it me or is this a silly argument) would have hardley intentionally it after unenforceable .Anyway still hasn't answered my question.

 

Regs

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Here try this link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-485937.html

Yes Peter, I remember this letter and (with my many thanks) I have in fact referred to it in my correspondence. It's the reason why I think the application is not an agreement. I had hoped we could try to get some statutory backing for the statement by the DTI. We seem to be skirting around the Act and Regulations but I think we still haven't identified why the DTI statement is correct. I expect if anyone goes to court they will have to show the statutory backing and produce a DTI letter to support our interpretation. It would just make our claims easier if the Act was clearer. But then that's just Utopia I suspect!

 

Thanks for reminding me of the DTI letter.

 

 

No probs

 

Regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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J

What is your opinion of post 130,

It seems the way to identify an agreement is if it has the words agreement on top. Of course this doesn't make the agreement unenforceable but i cannot see a juge enforcing without it especilly with the comments from the dti.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I think the whole of the CCA suggests some header of some sort and these regulations change the wording but still require the header.

From an application form point, most I have seen do include the header. Many errors are in the other parts such as cancellation rights, credit limits, timing of repayments etc.

I am not sure however that I am clear as to whether a judge can or would consider an application is an agreement or acts as a signed document just because it has a header on it.

Sorry if I am missing something, are you referring to a particular agreement that doesn't have the header?

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Hi

No i honestly don't mean to appear facetious but the whole debate over is it or isn't it a credit agreement cant it be answered by the reply.If it says Credit Agreement on the top it is. If it doesn't it is something else.

You see the - "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974". bit is part of the prescribed form of the agreement not just a header.

 

 

Regards

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I don't think you are being facetious Peter. I am just trying to understand what we have. Are you saying that you think if the application does have the prescribed terms then it can also be the agreement? I know Pam thinks it does but I am not sure. The thing that concerns me about that is if the intended debtor signs that kind of application and gets turned down, the creditor could turn up at a later date and claim there is an enforceable agreement in place. If they then invent a string of transactions, it is mighty difficult to disprove that the debt exists. I know that means a creditor has to behave fraudulently but those are the kind of creditors the Act was designed to protect debtors from.

 

That's why I have some doubts about the argument that a single document serves as both application and agreement.

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The thing that concerns me about that is if the intended debtor signs that kind of application and gets turned down, the creditor could turn up at a later date and claim there is an enforceable agreement in place. If they then invent a string of transactions, it is mighty difficult to disprove that the debt exists.

 

Hi

 

This application v agreement phenomena is, I think, exclusively confined to credit token agreements.

 

So - if you signed any 'document' that would not become an executed agreement until the lender had credit scored you and signed the 'document', you would be under no risk whatsoever IMO - because you would never receive the credit token if you were refused credit and so could not make any purchases or withdraw cash. If the lender tried to invent transactions these would be traceable (or rather NOT). I can't see any lender trying this on!! :o

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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Hi Typo

 

Unusual tor me but i did put the word without after what should have beeen the word enforceable(is it me or is this a silly argument) would have hardley intentionally it after unenforceable .Anyway still hasn't answered my question.

 

Regs

 

Peter

 

Firstly, my name is not 'Typo'!:rolleyes:

 

I assume the question you are referring to is:

 

Hi

I must admit i am a little confused about this application/agrement debate.

could you exlain why this doesn't apply by the way there is also a similar statement in the earlier regs.

 

I have not said that an agreement need not have this heading! Of course it 'should' have this heading, along with numerous other required contents.

 

What I am saying is that s127(3) gives the court discretion to enforce any document, in any form and with any omissions PROVIDED THAT it contains all of the prescribed terms and the debtors signature, as a minimum.

 

Whether or not the court would allow enforcement, in part or in full, will depend on the particular errors/omissions and the degree to which they prejudice the borrower.

 

This is what the Act provides, but you can challenge it if you feel lucky! :eek:

 

 

Regards, Pam

VITAL - IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE INCREASED BAILIFFS' POWERS TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND USE FORCE IN ORDER TO GET YOUR GOODS THEN JOIN THE PETITION HERE:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....l#post53879 9

 

Anyone seeing this who wants to help by copying it to their signature please do.

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BTW is there anybody currently in the process of challenging the CCA in court ?

 

would be really interested to see how that turns out, it could well set the precident

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Halifax - Case Charges+CI+Damages+costs

Online Finance - Case Charge+CI+Damages+costs

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Just going back to the original reason for this post , RBoS have still not sent me the standard, "we're missing your payment letter"!

 

Of course, i'll scan & post if they do, BUT... It's all gone quiet!!!

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BTW is there anybody currently in the process of challenging the CCA in court ?

 

would be really interested to see how that turns out, it could well set the precident

 

Hi,

 

I'm giving it a go this week (wont say who for now, MIB) but as pointed out before, no precedent can be set in small claims, needs to go higher

 

TBH, I don't think it will get to court, if the CCP have got any sense they'll settle before that happens because the response to my S78 would look like a very bad joke (gone badly wrong, in a bad way) to the court

 

I'm taking an approach to the whole thing that I believe is very fair, should it work out I'll broadcast it

omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium

 

 

Please note: I am not a member of the legal profession, all advice given is purely my opinion, if in doubt consult a professional

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I don't think you are being facetious Peter. I am just trying to understand what we have. Are you saying that you think if the application does have the prescribed terms then it can also be the agreement? I know Pam thinks it does but I am not sure. The thing that concerns me about that is if the intended debtor signs that kind of application and gets turned down, the creditor could turn up at a later date and claim there is an enforceable agreement in place. If they then invent a string of transactions, it is mighty difficult to disprove that the debt exists. I know that means a creditor has to behave fraudulently but those are the kind of creditors the Act was designed to protect debtors from.

 

That's why I have some doubts about the argument that a single document serves as both application and agreement.

No I think what i am saying that the credit agreement is being used as an apliction.

At the risk of mentiong the d word in distance contracts the agreement has to be filled in by the applciant and sent or e-mailed or whatever before the account is opened. I don't think that just filling in the agreement commits them to give you an account. So yes i dont see why it couldn't act as an application and it obviosly does in alot of cases i have seen . But it would again IMO have to be clearly marked as an agreement as per the regs and as per the OFT.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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HI Pam

 

Wsn,t trying to be funny it was just to indicate that my error was due to a typo although in actual fact there is nothing wrong with saying the agreement is unenforcble without an order from the court means the same thng as enforceable only with an order from the court.anyway sorry i called you typo.

The whole section 127 thing was debated disected and thoroughly investigated by Tam myself and Number 6 many moons ago i assure you that i am perfectly familiar with it.

Again can i ask you to stop picking we are all trying to learn here.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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