Cautioned for not having Train ticket

[reduk054]

Hey Calvi, thank you for your post.

It is always interesting to hear from someone with first hand dealings with the train companies. And I can appreciate that from your view, as a driver that there must have been a lot of incidents that were at the very least unpleasant.

I am so cross today, I travelled by train yesterday (bought my tickets in advance so no problems!) and witnessed a person who when approached by the train guard for a ticket, admitted to not having one and then when the guard asked this person where they got on, the person said the next station on (we had not even stopped at it!), and the guard did not even bat an eyelid just charged a tiny fare (not a penalty!), and the guard had been in the carriage with this person all the while.

Any way, I guess I will have to pay the penalty fare and the admin costs, even though I did try and purchase a ticket prior to travel.

Oh and also, I provided ID to the ticket inspector and I have received this fine, however my travelling partner did not have any ID and has not received a fine. So where does honesty pay?

[reduk054]

I sent First capital connect a letter denying that i was on their train, (i was not, I was on another train) and that I was not travelling between the stations that they suggested, and have asked them to prove that I was. No reply yet.

I am still the only one who has had a penalty letter though.

[calvi36]

Hi again Red, Guards or Conductors are very different to RPI's. They have a lot of duties to perform apart from collecting fares, although they are targetted on revenue. The guard is in charge of the train, whereas the driver is in charge of the safe working of the train, two completely different roles. The guard is responsible for opening and closing of the doors, power operated doors only. Making announcements, next station is hell run when u get off.

I would view your comments on issuing a ticket to a customer from the next station as nothing more than the guard thinking, is this worth the hassle. Most people just see a uniform but believe me it is a highly stressful job. I quit after 9 years and two divorces. It has a very high divorce rate does the railway industry. Imagine getting out of bed at 1am to start work at 3 minutes past 2am, you will soon see why. I wish you luck in getting this resolved.

 

Hey Calvi, thank you for your post.

It is always interesting to hear from someone with first hand dealings with the train companies. And I can appreciate that from your view, as a driver that there must have been a lot of incidents that were at the very least unpleasant.

I am so cross today, I travelled by train yesterday (bought my tickets in advance so no problems!) and witnessed a person who when approached by the train guard for a ticket, admitted to not having one and then when the guard asked this person where they got on, the person said the next station on (we had not even stopped at it!), and the guard did not even bat an eyelid just charged a tiny fare (not a penalty!), and the guard had been in the carriage with this person all the while.

 

Any way, I guess I will have to pay the penalty fare and the admin costs, even though I did try and purchase a ticket prior to travel.

Oh and also, I provided ID to the ticket inspector and I have received this fine, however my travelling partner did not have any ID and has not received a fine. So where does honesty pay?

[reduk054]

Calvi, thank you again for your post. I am sad for you that the job was stressful and affected your personal life in such a way. Its interesting seeing things from the other side.

ps, I have never had a problem with the guards, I think that the job that they do is very hard!

[calvi36]

Calvi, thank you again for your post. I am sad for you that the job was stressful and affected your personal life in such a way. Its interesting seeing things from the other side.

ps, I have never had a problem with the guards, I think that the job that they do is very hard!

 

 

och am not sad at all they were witches lol. guards are normally good blokes and girls, they have to deal with more crap than you can imagine. Wee story for you. lancaster station, saturday afternoon. football supporters on train I was driving, a short run only 12 minutes from morecambe to Lancaster. Crowd starts getting off the train and i hear a scream behind my cab, I look out window to see a wee girl trapped in the power operated doors. I jump and prise the doors apart by hand. get onto platform. look down the length of the train and see the guard with blood over his face. I shout at him WHO? He points at some div with a union jack over his back. I go after him, tap on his shoulder and said wtf you playing at, when he tries to punch me, one headbutt and a few good kicks later am dragging him into see Charlie, the transport copper at lancaster. Guy was nicked. Turned out he had punched the guard, then pressed door close button on the guards panel as the wee girl was getting off the train.

 

It's more stressful than a lot of ppl realise.

[Todge]

red

 

Surely the ultimate Revenue Protection is fully staffing stations and maintaining the ticket machines? How about ticket machines on trains? Doesn't take a great deal of thought or investment does it?

 

Thought and investment - such rare commodities ...

 

T.

[calvi36]

Hasn't anyone finally realised the world is about revenue versus cost to collect that revenue. Costs lots to staff a station, to fit ticket machines etc. I am in no way coming down on the side of Train Operating Companies. The issue here is to compare the cost of manning every station in the UK against manning a few and having conductors collect fares alongside RPI's. The equation is simple, it is more cost effective to do the latter. Safety is the major issue for the public here, even with a well lit unmanned station late at night, who you going to call if you find yourself in trouble, not the guy in the booking office, THERE ISN'T ONE!

[Esio Trot]

I have to say, for what it is worth, that RPI's (Revenue Protection Inspectors) were hated just as much by staff as they were by the public and most only get into this type of job by being jobworths.

 

I must say that your comment is rather harsh.

 

For some years I was an RPI and it was a thankless task - for the last two years I applied for many dozens of internal transfers: ticket office, station assistants, all sorts. I came to the conclusion that there was an unwritten rule that RPI's could never transfer to any other position.

 

I resigned after being pushed down the stairs at Alexandra Palace station by a scroat who had no intention of being questioned on why he had no ticket and no intention to buy one. I thought my life and health were more important.

 

Anyway, to the OP of this thread:

 

At least 15 years ago, when it was still British Rail, any prosecutions were considered by a unit based in the offices of Cannon Street station. The type of letter you seem to have received was only sent out when the case notes showed "a good prospect of a conviction". However, the admin fee was at least 10 times the fare and not less than £100. It usually was paid by the recipient as the lesser evil than a conviction.

 

In your case however, it seems that only the fare plus a modest admin fee has been asked for. I suspect that this is because they don't have a case.

 

The key element which must be proved beyond reasonable doubt in any case of fare evasion is intent. As an example, one of my regular duties was to wait in plain clothes at the exit of a station where the ticket office was open. I would just approach people leaving the station and ask them for their ticket. If they had not bought one, and had walked past the ticket office I had an indefensible case of fare evasion.

 

He accused me of being a fare dodger (in polite terms) cautioned me (just like a police man) and I am now waiting to hear regarding the prosecution.

 

Anybody can issue a Caution, in the same way as a citizen anyone can arrest somebody in appropriate circumstances. It is rare for anyone to be cautioned unless the person giving it has had a significant amount of training. The reason for this is the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) as this has very strict rules on procedure. So how was the interview conducted? Were notes taken? Were they read back to you? Did you have an opportunity to sign the notes?

 

Thus the main question you have is whether the inspector established intent. From what you have written I doubt that intent has been established.

 

To have been given a Penalty Fare (in the same way as parking tickets) rules have to be followed. One of these is the test of reasonableness. My understanding is that waiting for up to 5 minutes to obtain a ticket is reasonable, more than this is not. It is reasonable to expect ticket machines to be working, they were not. Therefore if you were given a penalty fare, there would be good grounds for getting it rescinded.

 

I don't think you were given a penalty fare as they seem to be using the railway by-laws. To be sure, you could scan the letter (omitting identifying details, of course).

 

Based on what you have written, I would be tempted to send the fare only, and if you are confident that you did not admit intent, tell them that you will take your chances in a court of law!

[calvi36]

harsh but true. Sorry to hear about the stairs incident.

[Esio Trot]

most only get into this type of job by being jobworths.

 

harsh but true.

 

The "jobsworth" bit is definitely not true.

 

When I got the job it was from unemployment - the job was only advertised through the JobCentre - and I was one of twelve all lifted from the dole.

 

The money was much better than the dole, but until I was doing the job didn't realise the significance of recruiting from the unemployed. It is the sort of job only the desperate would apply for.

 

I certainly was not a jobsworth.

[Seminole]

A lot (all?) of stations have permit to travel machines which will issue you with a note allowing you to get on your train and pay at your destination or on board. You only have to put a few pence in to be allowed to travel.

[calvi36]

The "jobsworth" bit is definitely not true.

 

When I got the job it was from unemployment - the job was only advertised through the JobCentre - and I was one of twelve all lifted from the dole.

 

The money was much better than the dole, but until I was doing the job didn't realise the significance of recruiting from the unemployed. It is the sort of job only the desperate would apply for.

 

I certainly was not a jobsworth.

Esio, I HEAR YA. They only rec from jobcentres for rpi jobs, not coz people on benefits are low lifes, it's cause ppl want to work and will do any job. You didnt know what u were applying for and the stigma it attaches, that's why you were not considered for any other posts. mRPI cannot move anywhere apart from upwards in rev protection. I had personal with rpi on two occs, once for pass not filled in and believe this if u will, for being front end whilst route learning.

[reduk054]

Esio T, many thanks for the time which you have taken regarding my post. You have answered my queries and concerns comprehensively and eloquently - I am now in no doubt about my way forward!

I know that I am being obstinate here, however I did buy a full return ticket at the destination station, my intent (regardless of the meeting with the RPI) following the problems at the station where the journey started! Therefore I did pay what was owed so to speak.

Following your comments in your post I would agree that the case in court may fall down, as on my statement (which was read back to me and I did sign) i had explained in detail about how I had tried to purchase a ticket from the office initially then having waited in a long queue without moving decided to purchase a ticket from the (out-of-order) machine only to find that option 3, the second ticket machine was out of change and could only accept correct money only or a card other than electron (the only card in my possesion), so my intent to purchase a ticket appears loud and clear in my statement!

I have not had a response to my last letter to the train company, but Esio, I may use your advice if I do hear anything else.

 

Seminole - the problem that i had on the day was only having a £20 note, and no loose change, other wise I would have considered one of the tickets which you mentioned.

 

Todge - what a sensible idea, other countries use a better system than the UK. I am still flabbergasted that good old cash wasn't good enough in this incident, and that a debit card, which will only be authorised if there are sufficient funds in the account, was not accepted either. Maybe I should have taken the buttons from my shirt!

 

Calvi - keep smiling!!!!

 

Thank you all

 

Red

[calvi36]

esio, I wish you luck mate. Am not actually anti rpi well i wasn't until they were anti with me whilst route learning. It was taken that I was front end by an rpi to dodge a fare or a pass. Like I would actually commit a criminal offence, I think not. It is a far harsher offence than fare dodging to interfere with the safe working of a train! This would never happen on my part. I will thank you for the advice given to red though. At end of the day we are all here for each other. Red, I always smile, sometimes sneakily, sometimes with fun and other times it's just malice lol.

[reduk054]

CALVI

"Red, I always smile, sometimes sneakily, sometimes with fun and other times it's just malice lol".

Thanks you have made me smile, (with fun!!!)

Red

[bailey54]

My daughter - only been in London a couple of months - had her wallet stolen with her young persons railcard in it together with I D documents, anyway having got a crime number she was told by the ticket office she could still buy a young persons ticket while she waited for a replacement railcard and to quote the crime number to the guard/inspector if asked.

Yesterday travelling on the train from High Wycombe to Marylebone she was asked for her ticket and duly showed her purchased young persons ticket and expalined about her railcard. She was told as she did not have the railcard she would have to pay a penalty fee of £20. She did not have £20 on her and the bank card she was carrying had funds of only £16. The inspector took the details of her bank card. She asked him if she could phone me to place some money into that account and she would pay. He told her it could be paid when she reached the station. She assumed that he waould take the payment via her card details.

Having reached the station she approached the barrier and to her shock was manhandled by the inspector who then accused her attempting to leave the station without paying. He read her rights to her cautioned her and although she pleaded with him to allow her to make the call to me so she could pay the penalty would not allow her. She was frightened and upset. Does anyone know if she is taken to court and found guilty is it a criminal offence? I think however she has sufficient grounds to appeal. Help anyone??

[Esio Trot]

She was frightened and upset. Does anyone know if she is taken to court and found guilty is it a criminal offence? I think however she has sufficient grounds to appeal. Help anyone??

 

If found guilty it is a criminal offence.

 

However, if you read this thread, and particularly my earlier posts you will see that travelling without a ticket is not an offence of itself. The prosecution have to prove without a reasonable doubt that the defendant intended not to pay for their journey.

 

In the conditions of carriage it does say that a discounted ticket is only valid when accompanied by the appropriate railcard. A penalty fare can be levied, and the recipient has the opportunity to appeal. There is also (unless the rules have changed recently) no requirement to make payment at the time.

 

Having reached the station she approached the barrier and to her shock was manhandled by the inspector who then accused her attempting to leave the station without paying.

 

This is odd. If a PF had been issued, then that is the end of the matter as far as the inspector is concerned unless grounds have arisen for believing that false details had been given.

 

Presumably you have a copy of the PF notice, if one was issued. This you can use to make an enquiry. First you need to get your daughter to write and ask whether she was under arrest when she was cautioned, and on what grounds was she cautioned. If they reply that she was under arrest, ask on what grounds; if not, why was she manhandled.

 

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act is a powerful piece of legislation - and this is used where cautions are given. If you want a fascinating read, look up the act HERE.

 

If you need more specific advice from a legal perspective then you will need to post again with more factual information i.e. dates and times giving a chronology of events, preferably paragraphed or bullet pointed.

 

Reading what you have first posted at face value I don't think your daughter has much to worry about.

[bailey54]

When approached on the train the inspector asked for her I.D. which, as previously expalined, had been stolen along with her wallet and railcard some 2 weeks earlier. All she had was a bank card with her name on it and nothing to support. She was not asked at this stage for her name and address. The inspector simply took the details from her bank card at this time.

 

No PF notice was given to her, the inspector told her that as she had approached the barrier it was assumed she was leaving the station to avoid paying the fine and because of that he would not now issue the PF notice.

My daughter, although intelligent, is not very street wise having spent her life until now in sleepy Devon! Up until this point, and being unaware of the system, she had assumed that as he had her bank details that they would be used to collect the fine. At no time did she intentionally attempt to avoid paying the fine and in fact made efforts to do so.

She is still unclear if she was actually arrested, she felt so intimidated that all understanding went out the window!

 

As we have no paperwork/reference numbers etc. who do we write to and where? and how do we reference the incident?

[bailey54]

Just to underline - she had actually paid for a ticket which she had in her possession but did not have the railcard to support it!

[Esio Trot]

No PF notice was given to her, the inspector told her that as she had approached the barrier it was assumed she was leaving the station to avoid paying the fine and because of that he would not now issue the PF notice.

 

Barriers are normally at the head of the platform. Usually the ticket office is beyond this - thus either your daughter misunderstood what was said, or the inspector was making a false premiss. It's the same with shoplifting - you normally have to be leaving the store before theft can be proved. Same with a station. Normally the ticket office is near the entrance to the station - not by the barrier.

 

If she was Cautioned, then you will have to read my earlier post and get your daughter to answer the questions about timing, reading back, signing of notes etc. Ideally she needs to write down the questions she can remember and her answers. Look to see if "intent" do not pay has been proved - if not, no case.

[bailey54]

Thanks for your help Esio, she is going to write everything she can remember down today and send it off, I'll let you know how she gets on.

[reduk054]

HI Bailey, sorry to hear about the dreadful way that your daughter was treated. I hope that she is ok after her ordeal.

I am pleased that Esio has been of help, I found Esio's help invaluable, answering all the questions which I wanted answered, and the biggest thing that I learned in my case was the matter of "intent" when attempting to / purchasing a ticket. In your daughter's case it is clear that she was acting on advice and had every intention of paying.

If I were you I would be considering a severe complaint letter, as your daughter was treated without respect. From experience the train company involved will probably issue a letter "offering" a low payment of the fine plus an administration cost. But I would complain first.

I hope that it works out for you, and interested in what happens in your case. Best of luck

Red

[Yasmin]

Hi,

I have received a letter from "First Capital Connect" concerning my 16 year old son. Apparently he boarded a train without a ticket. The letter is addressed to me, as the parent/or guardian. It states that normally they would prosecute, however, in this instance they are prepared to accept a 35.00, the outstanding fare plus a huge admin fee. They have also mentioned that failure to pay this may well affect my credit rating.

 

Do I have no option but to pay it?? Seems a bit excessive to me, and also was not too pleased at the threatening"credit rating bit". My son is 16 and I can't be watching over him 24/7..........

[buzby]

Taking this in reverse order - I'd be interested in how they could affect your credit rating, as (1) you never transgressed, it was a family member and (2) You've not given permission for your details to be passed to a CRA, so they'd be in breach of the Data Protection Act.

 

As to the penalty - why not just pay it, and take it out of his allowance or get him to pay it under your supervision. He might then appreciate that travel has to be paid for, and is mighty expensive if you break the rules.

[Yasmin]

yes, I think I will take your advice and just pay it or he will from his own money... He was in the wrong, no doubt. I just didn't like the tone of the letter and the admin. fee seems excessive. However, more important issues at the moment, LOL.