3 Mobile Harrassment for a closed account

[Sev]

4 years ago I had an account with 3 mobile. It was painfull and I eventually decided to terminate all agreements and settle in full.

 

Now I have recieved a letter from a debt collection agency calling for an outstanding sum of £26.49 to be paid.

 

I asked then to send me proof, and they said I would have to turn to 3 for this. Also I could not sue them.

 

I have rung 3 and they told me that they only have records going back 12 months, and that previous to this they have no records.

 

What can I do? I asked for proof of my statements but they have told me that this is not possible.

 

Legally what can I do?

[RevengeAtLast]

I am not an expert but this sounds like a bit of a bad joke to me...

What are they going to do...take you to court?

 

I can imagine it now...

'Yes you honour, I promise you we are telling the truth but we cannot prove it and have no records...'

 

Personally I would probably simply refuse to pay!

But I would wait for more professional advice than mine...

[Sev]

I spoke to the Office of Fair Trading, and they told me to first of all request proof by way of statements, so that's what i'm going to do.

[GPM]

Sev, I understand the debt collector must send you a copy of their contract with 3 (as proof 3 have passed the 'debt' onto them), upon request. They cannot then demand payment until you have a copy of this. You can then dispute it - they also cannot demand payment whilst it is in dispute. That is the first step I would take.

[buzby]

Simply write to the debt collector stating that you have asked their client (3UK) to provide proof that the bebt exists, however they have been unable to do so.

 

You are writing to them as a courtesy only, to advise you reject 3's claim until such proof is provided, additionally you will not be entrering into further correspondence with third parties in this matter.

 

That should tidy up the first bit, but you'll then need to request your credit file from a CRA to see if adverse data has been recorded against your identity.

[Sev]

Thanks Buzby and GPM, i'll do that and post the letters as templates for others to use on here when i've done.

 

I'll keep you posted!

[Sev]

I've sent the following letters to H3G. Feel free to ammend for your own needs. I've copied in quite a few people you may find helpfull!

 

 

 

Mr Bob Fuller CEO

Hutchison 3G UK Limited,

Hutchison House,

Albion Wharf,

5 Hester Road,

Battersea

SW11 4AN.

 

Monday 19th March 2007

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 9201xxxxxx

 

Dear Mr Fuller,

 

I once took out a contract with Hutchinson 3G UK in the summer of 2004. The contract was for 12 months and was for a combined offer of 500 minutes anytime and for a 3 as you go plan and handset.

 

One year later, I terminated that contract on the grounds of abysmal customer service and painfull billing errors. To this day I have always tried to forget the awful customer service and the terrible ‘couldn’t care less’ attitude of your call centre staff.

In fact, the weight off my shoulders when the contract was finally over was beyond compare.

 

As you can imagine, I was less than pleased when I received a letter of formal demand from the debt collection agency Buchananclark+Wells stating that they had been instructed by Hutchinson 3G to recover the outstanding sum of £26.49 for an overdue debt.

 

Their letter of 8th February 2007 states:

“Our client has informed us that they are unaware of any legitimate reason for non payment of their account and although they would prefer an amicable settlement, will not hesitate to comment Legal Proceedings in necessary”

 

On telephoning (DCA), on the first occasion I was told that it was I that would have to prove that there was no outstanding debt, and that until such time they would pursue regardless.

 

On the 17th February I received a letter from Hutchinson 3G UK, a statement of account for a 3toGo price plan. This was showing a credit of £3.91.

 

I rung the customer services number on the statement, and was told by the call centre operative that the £26.49 was showing as outstanding and that my 3 as you go account had been changed to a 3toGo.

 

I asked whether he could give me the date of the outstanding transaction, he replied that he did not have details on accounts passed 12 months.

 

I then reminded him of the Data Protection Act 1998, stating that information must be held for six years. He proceeded to tell me that they did not hold records past 12 months, and that as Hutchinson 3G do not have call centres in the UK, were not subject to UK Law!

 

On the 20th February 2007, I received another letter from the DCA. A final notice, and now threatening legal proceedings to recover the principal lump sum and the interest and costs of such action.

 

Enclosed is a letter that I have sent them disputing this sum.

 

I would like therefore to ask the following:

 

1) Data Protection Act 1998 Subject Access Request

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my history with your organisation. Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 DPA subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local 3 Branch.

 

Should you, as your call centre operative states, only hold data for 12 months then I feel that a complaint to the Information Commissioner is in order and also will begin a County Court action under the Data Protection Act.

 

2) Why in 2004 was my account not terminated as asked.

Why when all outstanding amounts were settled, and confirmed as settled, am I still now owing £26.49 ?

 

3) Why have you waited 3 years (how very ironic) in order for you to realise that I apparently owe you money (which I strongly dispute), and if so, why was a statement of request not sent to me by Hutchinson 3G UK in the first instance, as opposed to having to hear first from a debt collection agency?

 

4) If I still have any accounts showing as open – please, close them immediately as they should have been in 2004. There is no excuse for the action of not having done so. Please be clear – I wish absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

5) I am led to understand that you may have filed a default to the credit referencing agencies. I will of course request a copy of my credit record. If it shows that you or Buchananclark+Wells have indeed filed a default against me, I will seek further action.

 

I feel that were this debt genuine, and given the struggle I had in ridding myself of your contract, you would have been more than persisitent in the recovery of this sum.

 

In behaving in this manner, I feel that terminating my contract with you, which I may hasten to add, was like pulling teeth, was a totally justified action in 2004.

 

I find the morality and ethic of not employing UK call centre staff, but taking the UK public’s money in order to maximise your profits absolutely disgusting. I have written to my MP in order to see if this can be highlighted in the House of Commons.

 

I have forwarded a copy also to your regulatory bodies Otelo and ICSTIS. I do not have any faith in your customer complaints department.

I look forward to a resolution of this matter and await your reply.

 

 

 

 

Sev

 

 

 

Enc. Cheque for the Sum of £10 number xxxxxx

 

Letter from Buchananclark+wells 8th February 2007

Letter from Buchananclark+wells 20th February 2007

Copy of 3 statement for 3toGo account 14 February 2007

 

cc. Debt collection agency

Otelo

ICTIS

Office of Fair Trading

BBC Watchdog

Consumer Action Group

[Sev]

Dear Sir or Madam,

I would like to inform you that I dispute the debt of £26.49 to Hutchinson 3G UK.

Enclosed you will find a letter to them and to their regulatory bodies and the Office of Fair Trading.

Until proof has been shown that I owed Hutchinson 3G UK the sum of £26.49, I refuse to acknowledge ANY debt to your company, despite what was said to me by one of your customer support staff, that it is I who must prove the debt to you. Therefore I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 Cheque in payment of the statutory fee, Serial Number 300004.

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that qualifies you to pursue this debt.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

As far as I am concerned, I consider this alleged debt to be in dispute.

I await your correspondence.

Yours Sincerely

Name Here

Enc. Cheque for the sum of £1 – cheque Number xxxxx

Letter to Hutchinson 3G UK

cc. Buchananclark+wells

Otelo

ICTIS

Office of Fair Trading

BBC Watchdog

Consumer Action Group

[Sev]

Mr Bob Fuller (3's CEO)

Hutchison 3G UK Limited,

Hutchison House,

Albion Wharf,

5 Hester Road,

Battersea

SW11 4AN.

executive.office@three.co.uk

Otelo

Office of the Telecommunications Ombudsman – the independent provider of our dispute resolution process.

Otelo

PO Box 730

Warrington,

WA4 6WU

E-mail: enquiries@otelo.org.uk

Tel: 0845 050 1614

ICSTIS

The Independent Committee for the Supervision of Standards of Telephone Information Services regulates the content and promotion of premium-rate services.

ICSTIS

Clove Building

4 Maguire Street

London

SE1 2NQ

E-mail: secretariat@icstis.org.uk

Tel: 020 7940 7474

[buzby]

Sorry, you've gone off with a blunderbuss and sprayed everyone - Bob Fuller deson't deal with day to day consumer business, and sending him a SAR is pointless, far better sending this to the Data Controller (details from the ICO website) with your fee.

 

If you'd read the 'sticky' notice in this forum about the CCA, you'll notice is does not affect Mobile Phone contracts, and to attempt to claim this confirms to them there is no understanding of how it all works. Similarly, you mention they 'have to keep records for 6 years'. Where did you get this from? The only reference to 6 years is that CRA's assert this is a "reasonable time" to hold information on your record, it is not enshrined in any document or law. It would be sensible for firms to hang on to data for as long as possible, but don't try to tell them what their rules should be, it does you no favours and takes much of the impact away from an otherwise competent correspondence.

[Sev]

Buzby, Thanks, I haven't posted any of this lot yet.

 

Ok, so now I'm confused. I haven't managed to get any joy from the DCA or from 3's customer services.

 

What about a polite notice to the executive office to start with?

 

I'm running around chasing my tail here.

 

So what do I request from the ICO? if 3 say that they don't have any proof of the debt, it just shows as outstanding then the ICO won't have the information I need will they?

[buzby]

Well.... in itself the letter is great, (with the exceptions I noted earlier) and a direct appeal can be useful if they're not swamped (!). They are interested in customer experience, so they may try to make amends, so comments like 'I wouldn't wipe my bum with your newsletters again', kinda make a friendly restitution difficult.

 

Take it in stages, send this direct to 3UK, if no satisfaction get your SAR and look for charges that are wrong and ask for a refund along with your SAR fee), if they don't play ball - THEN do the OFTEL, and OTELLO if you want to.

[Sev]

Right, so perhaps rewrite the letter minus the SAR part, and perhaps a little more cordial, and should it come to it, send fee to the ICO.

 

It's not the charges - it's the fact that I actually settled in full. The 3 as you go account was never used, but mysteriously at contract termination time a fee of £85 appeared for calls made - even though i'd never taken the phone or the sim out of the wrapper!

 

I paid them just to draw a line under it all.

 

I wish i'd kept it now, but last year I shredded the 'sorry to lose you' letter!

 

This lot are a real bunch of pratts!

[Sev]

What if I ammend request 1 to read the following:

 

"1) Proof of Debt.

I would kindly ask that you supply me with proof of this outstanding sum, I am sure that were you to look thoroughly through your records, you will see that I have in fact paid all accounts in full.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return.If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

I would also ask for written confirmation that once this confusion has been resolved, all points have been settled, just incase any confusion should arise in the future"

 

I'll stick to my original letter to the DCA,as I don't think this is unreasonable.

 

Also do you think 14 or 28 days to provide such proof?

When you say 3UK, I take it you mean the London Address? - I'm sorry but I really have no faith whatsoever in their call centre staff.

[buzby]

That looks good. Make it 28 days to fully comply, as that show's you're being both realistic and reasonable. 3UK, the management are in Herts and Glasgow, with the main admin at their St Vincent Street address in Glasgow, let me know if you need it.

[Sev]

Thanks Buzby, i'll do that.

 

If you could give me the correct address that would be really good.

 

Would it be worth sending an electronic copy to the exec. office email above, or not bother at this stage?

[buzby]

Sure,

 

Hutchison 3G UK,

123 St Vincent Street,

Glasgow. G2 5EA.

 

Tel: 08707 330 295

Fax: 0141 204 8773 (this is not the call centre)

 

As for emailing the Exec Office, sure - go for broke, it won't cost you anything and might speed things up!

[snu]

I just thought I'd point out that there's no point in forwarding this to ICSTIS, since they only regulate premium rate services.

[Sev]

Thanks snu, Odd then how H3G have ICSTIS listed as one of the bodies to whom a complaint can be made!

[buzby]

Why is it odd? If you were ripped off with a premium rated call, they are the most appropriate people to contact.

[Sev]

Buzby, i just thought it's odd that they should list a regulator who looks after premium rate numbers, and they don't use premium rate numbers... or perhaps i'm missing something.

 

Anyway, I as yet have heard nothing back from H3G, however I have recieved a letter from Buchananclark+Wells, reading as follws:

 

"Dear Sev,

 

I write with regards to your recent communication concerning the above account.

 

I would advise that we do not hold copy Credit Agreements at this office, as we are not the creditor. Under the circumstances your postal order for £1.00 is returned herewith.

 

However, I would advise that I have placed this account on hold and have asked my client to forward documents to you directly.

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us on 08707001551 should you require any further assistance. You can also e-mail on general@bcwgroup.com

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

David Smith

Administration department

bcwgroup plc"

 

 

I've got another 10 days before the 28 day deadline that H3G had expires.

My next thoughts are if I haven't heard anything, to forward a copy of all correspondence to the OFT.

 

The fact is, that I know this account is dead and buried - I spent so much effort trying to get this lot to accept that I really didn't want their services anymore that it's scarred into my memory for eternity!

[buzby]

You could have received Premium Rated SMS spam, which the networks say they cannot stop (which is a lie!) and they'd refer you to ICSTIS to get your money back.

[Sev]

Yes, i see your point!

 

Right got a letter from H3G on the weekend, it didn't answer any of the questions raised in my initial letter, only stating that it was an outstanding amount calculated when the account was closed.

 

it reads as follows:

"we tried to call today on your mobile and landline, but unfortunately, you weren't available when I called.

 

You still have an outstanding current balance of £26.49 to date which you are liable for this payment for august and september 2004 bills and after your final bill was recalculated after your account was closed. Your account is in collections at the present time and you can make the above payments by giro slip (found on the bottom of your bills), debit/credit card or by cheque. Remember to put your account number and mobile number on the back of the cheque so our payments department can process your cheque more efficiently.

 

I hope that this clarifies matters for you."

 

The thing that really annoyed me was that his first line stated that he'd called my home and mobile but had had no reply. He certainly didn't call my home, nor did he call my mobile - unless of course he used the non existant 3 phone number!

 

I think i'll just file a complaint to trading standards and BBC watchdog.

[buzby]

There's little point 'filing' a complaint with either. One is a broadcaster and will do nothing unless they spot a trend they can create a story around. TS only pursue organizations they have the legal powers for absolute errors (like Weights & Measures), anything else they make soothing noises but you're on your own.

[Sev]

so what would you do in my position?