Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[MARTIN3030]

Ah yes this is much clearer.

Well he was probably right-since the terms being used now are terms which were drafted up very quickly....in fact to give an example a returned cheque or failed standing order on a Barclays Business account will now cost the princely sum of 2 quid !!!

in 1999/2000 this was £27.50.

Barclays excuses that the fee is so low now is because they say they have improved processing and handling technology....what a joke.

 

I am awaiting a response from a few questions from Emma Parker-she has been kind enough to answer lots of questions for me since 2006.

 

The bottom line is this-Andrew Smith looked at the terms and conditions of current personal accounts.

The activities and structure as regards unauthorised overdrafts was,in my opinion completely different to those found in business accounts-specifically the pricing tariffs.

I am in the process of going through the complete OFT judgements as well as observations because I need to find things for my own case.

 

Its not an easy task,and I am under no illusions,that putting together a case that can demonstrate without question that the Smith judgements were not targetted at Business accounts,will not be easy.

Not only do I have to show that there are lots of inconsistencies between the 2,but I also have to show some evidence that they were unlawful.

I have only 14 days to put something together-lets not forget that Smith took months to unravel things and give his findings.

 

But given the complexity of things,I also need to be able to put something together that clearly demonstrates my case and can be fully understood by the Judge.

As you can imagine-it is not a trial that most Judges will look forward to because the defendants are maintaining that 4 high Court judges have already ruled in the banks favour on common law.

I cannot reveal much more-but if you dont see me on here for a while-you know what I will be doing !!

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Martin,

 

I have looke dup S.77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and it covers copies of the original agreement but nothing about terms and conditions. Firstly does this Act cover bank accounts where no credit has been offered and the account is operated purely on the basis of paying money in only. And secondly does the Act provide for the original terms and conditions to be supplied, not just the original agreement?

 

TheyrCriminals

[MARTIN3030]

The terms and conditions form the core part of a contract and so yes they are integral to your agreement.

Your account would have been regulated under the Consumer credit act.

[Ibsys]

for a fee of £250 or so there are firms who guarantee to open a business bank account and all you have to do is say which bank you want. I cant remember the name of the firm but EDIT will tell you who it is. (Doncaster)

Edited April 18, 2009 by slick132
commercial link removed

[Ibsys]

Hi

My business account is with Lloyds

I did bank with Lloyds but I cut them off-enough is enough! They have cost us £50.000 on 7 fronts

Won't pay insurance claim but took up front premium

Caused us lost work

Two tier overdraft system

Authorised borrowing charged at penalty rates

Defamation- authorised payments written down as unauthorised

Money missing from loan account

Couldn't find manager for day at a time---it goes on

My main problem is getting responses to letters even thought they are all recorded delivery

[Ibsys]

Hi all

Thanks for the link Photoman

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/68393-midland-business-acc-pre.html?highlight=midland

 

The above link is to the thread that i posted about my in-laws business that failed in 1990 due to massive bank charges amongst other things and if anyone could offer any advice it would be really appreciated.

 

 

The business was run as a partnership throughout the 1980's culminating in Bankruptcy in 1990.

 

My in-laws dont have any paperwork whatsoever, everything went to the OR.

 

I would imagine that everything is destroyed after a set time , if anyone knows of the timescale involved, could you please let me know ?

 

With regard to paying any money out to former creditors,wouldnt my in-laws be free of restrictions after 17 years ?

 

All assets at the time were taken ,including business property, family home and all vechiles,stock etc ?

 

I would be a little surprised if they would still have to pay out to former creditors after so long?

 

TBH , I dont have a lot of faith with regard to reclaiming on this for my in-laws, but if I could this would be a massive claim. Maybe the biggest ever.

 

They have nothing left to lose as you said Photoman.

 

Got to be worth a try ?

 

Hope xx

After 3 years and a "Discharge Certificate" from the Court, there would be no further claims to be met. Small fee for Discharge Certificate.

[Ibsys]

I agree with you. Provided it can be seen that at the time you took out the loan, that charges you had incurred on that account (and I would say that is regardless of any limitations or time) were equivalent or pretty near the amount of the loan. But remember, it would only be the interest on the loan in that scenario, as you would have already claimed the charges, if you understand what I mean. Also you would be able to claim interest on the interest on the loan you had paid.

I intend to look into this myself also, once my initial cliam is settled.

I am advised it is a dangerous thing totake out a loan to clear an overdraft. The loan will have a directors guarantee with it and the OD would be removed. The loan would just clear the OD and the facility and remove cash flow at the same time so the loan repayments could be paid only when a customer pays so a default is likely to occur. This would then give the bank reason to foreclose and take assets. Sneeky!

[TheyrCriminals]

The terms and conditions form the core part of a contract and so yes they are integral to your agreement.

Your account would have been regulated under the Consumer credit act.

 

Thanks for this Martin.

 

TheyrCriminals

[photoman]

I am advised it is a dangerous thing totake out a loan to clear an overdraft. The loan will have a directors guarantee with it and the OD would be removed. The loan would just clear the OD and the facility and remove cash flow at the same time so the loan repayments could be paid only when a customer pays so a default is likely to occur. This would then give the bank reason to foreclose and take assets. Sneeky!

 

That quote of mine is so old I'd almost forgotten I'd made it !!

 

 

I agree, taking out a loan to clear an overdraft makes poor economic sense for the business account holder.

 

You end up paying interest upon interest already paid, and it also often carries an onus to provide a guarantee. Also, because such loans also often come with a removal of any overdraft facility, this puts you into a position whereby you have to ensure that funds are available for each monthly installment, or be faced with more defaults or a calling in of the guarantee.

 

However, many SME's are forced by their banks to take such loans, under threats of facing actions to recover the overdraft anyway. Plus, the overdrafts they are used to clear may have been covered by similar guarantee's anyhow.

The banks force you into such a position because they want to see a monthly reduction in borrowing overall, plus it make them look good to HO.

 

Anyhow, as I also said, I think there is a case and reasoning for claiming back the extra interest you incurred upon subsequent loans, if such loans were taken out to repay borrowing wholly or primarily due to charges & interest upon such in the first place.

 

Remember that such an interest claim would be threefold, as this is the true extent of the [problem] they have perpetrated. ie: you incur charges; you incur interest upon the account that the charges were upon; you then incur interest upon the loan used to repay the charges; you then incur interest upon the account used to repay the loan installments.

 

Such a claim should ideally be made at the same time as the charges reclaim, in order to show relevance and proof of cause of action, but the calculations for interest would be a little different as calculating that incurred upon an account. For example, by entering your loan installments and monthly interest upon the loan in the column where the charges would normally go on the sheet, but only claiming the figures that come out in the interest side. ie: you don't claim the installments back, as these sums are being claimed back in the charges sheet.

 

Of course this all relies upon having a cause of action in the first place; which for business claimants is a bit difficult at the moment, and brings us back to our own ongoing contentions, that due to absolutely no consideration of business account contracts, the OFT case has not yet brought any definitive clarity to the position of business claimants

 

The other thing to bear in mind, is that any loan would also be covered by the CCA74 or CPUTR06 (depending on when the loan was taken), as regardless of the titles of such statutes they are not just confined to protecting loans taken by personal account holders. They also protect most business loans too (certainly for sole traders up to £25k).

So, if the loan agreement is flawed or they have no proof of an agreement, there are then other ways to challenge it, and possibly have such loans declared unenforceable ......... so by forcing a loan to repay charges upon the business account holder, then the banks may have actually shot themselves in the foot, by giving you more rights than you would have had if they'd just left it as an overdraft !!

 

 

PM

[photoman]

Remember, there is also the aspect of PPI upon such loans.

 

In the first part, such PPI should not have been sold to you, as being self employed you would normally be excluded from being able to claim against it anyhow. In the second part, as it would be front loaded, you would also be paying interest upon it, and finally it would often be incorrectly determined upon the agreement, making such invalid and unenforceable.

[photoman]

Personally, I think much more should be made of this whole [problem] of consolidation loans, whereby the banks end up making yet more interest from you due to the initial charges.

 

Such events are not just limited to business claimants, and I am surprised that few personal account claimants have picked up on this, as even if they do eventually manage to get back the charges and the interest upon such account from such charges, if there were also loans involved, the banks would still have been left having profited from their original actions.

[Ibsys]

Personally, I think much more should be made of this whole [problem] of consolidation loans, whereby the banks end up making yet more interest from you due to the initial charges.

 

Such events are not just limited to business claimants, and I am surprised that few personal account claimants have picked up on this, as even if they do eventually manage to get back the charges and the interest upon such account from such charges, if there were also loans involved, the banks would still have been left having profited from their original actions.

One of the reasons for banks to offer consolidation loans (and 0% credit cards) is to have paid up the loan or credit card it is taking over. The old loan or credit card would most likely originate before April 6 2007. This is a critical date as 83% of agreements before this date are unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. People can have loan agreements invalid and so not have to repay anything more.

[Ibsys]

hi all

 

im Claiming £37000 from nat west (business account) so ill join this thread as well

 

can anyone tell me if it will make any difference as i have sent my MCOL with the template from a private account rather than a business account

 

i.e. consumer law has been mentioned

 

thanks for any advice u can give

 

regards scott

I have written to Lloyds about my £50000 six times by recorded delivery to 3 places and all ignored until I sent 3 more letters to different addresses saying I would pay no more money into any Lloyds Department I do business with 'till they sort it out. That got a response but at least I got a name to pester!

[Ibsys]

Scott

How have you arrived at that figure?

Is it just charges for returned items?

Have you been careful not to include any legit charges such as arrangement fees for agreeing overdrafts etc (still outrageousley high....but unfortunately not covered by this action)

ALSO....does your £37k include the interest you are charging them?

If so, what rate are you using? Statutory (8%), or Contractual (ie authorised or unauthorised lending rates equivalent to their own) ?

 

ALSO.

Yes, you could encounter problems with having used the Personal account particulars in your claim, Consumer regulations do not apply to Business accounts. I would suggest (also bearing in mind with a claim of this size ) that you should file at a court on an N1. It gives you much more room to put in details. I think you can withdraw your MCOL and resubmit it as an N1. Alternatively, I think you can amend or resubmit particulars on your current MCOL. I do not know the procedure for either, but maybe PM one of the site helpers or Moderators, and they should be able to tell you the process.

Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 2000

Interest at 8% over the Bank of England base rate

[kashfat]

Hi guys, could you tell me if business customers can go ahead and claim bank charges please:roll:

[Ibsys]

tifo, one that I'm dealing with at Lloyds is exactly the same, they answered letters from Andover and another came from Birmingham, both telephone numbers are either engaged or they trip into an answer machine asking for your details. They say they'll call back if you leave your details. I've done that 3 times over 3 weeks and not one reply.

Have you tried this number for Lloyds. If you ring it they tell you it is for Managers only but be insistant and say you can't get replies.

 

It is the "Customer Service Department of Excellence"

0845 301 4605 (Excellence in a bank is rare or it is a lie!)

[papadak]

Hi is it possible to re-claim Quarterly charges on business bank accounts?

[MARTIN3030]

It depends on what the charges are-if they can be seen as charges or fees for a service then generally no.

But that does not mean they are fair or reasonable-what charges are you talking of ?

[andrew1]

Remember, there is also the aspect of PPI upon such loans.

 

In the first part, such PPI should not have been sold to you, as being self employed you would normally be excluded from being able to claim against it anyhow. In the second part, as it would be front loaded, you would also be paying interest upon it, and finally it would often be incorrectly determined upon the agreement, making such invalid and unenforceable.

 

Hi PM

 

I've been away from the business front for a while on here, but I was a sole Director of a Limited company, my own business. For some intitutions, being a sole director one is deemed self employed, for others one is deemed an employee. From what you have gleened from your wanderings on here have you any idea how PPI on a loan might be treated for my situation? I've personally been treated as both oveer the years and now I'm clearing the decks a little I'm taking closer looks at what went on. I've been through liquidations too which doesn't help the claim process for business loans or business charges, but these loans were often supported by Directors guarantees so worth at least looking into again.

 

Thanks, trust you keep well..

 

A1

[MARTIN3030]

I have had a reply back from Emma Parker at the FOS.

So I was right that you can ask for your business terms and conditions/tariffs using the consumer credit act.Emma suggests in particular if you had a loan or other service regulated under the act.

Also a little about how they can assist.

 

 

 

heres what she says;

 

Hello Martin,

 

As you know, the Financial Ombudsman Service looks into individual complaints referred to us by consumers or small businesses. We have received some cases about charges that have been applied to business bank accounts - but have not yet issued a final decision on a case. Many of the cases we see involve a number of strands of complaint, rather than solely turning on the point relating to charges.

 

In terms of getting hold of your account terms and tariffs, if you had a loan or overdraft on your business account it is likely that this formed part of a regulated credit agreement. Therefore, trying to get hold of copy terms and conditions by using the provisions of the act should have been a possibility. However, I don't know whether there are time limits that apply for requesting information under this section of the CCA. As you'll appreciate, Martin, I'm not able to give you legal advice as our role is to resolve the individual disputes that are referred to us. Therefore you might want to consider getting your own legal advice on this point.

 

In terms of complaints that come to the ombudsman service, are rules set out that generally the Ombudsman cannot consider a complaint if the complainant refers it to the Financial Ombudsman Service:

 

(2) more than:

 

(a) six years after the event complained of; or (if later)

 

(b) three years from the date on which the complainant became aware (or ought reasonably to have become aware) that he had cause for complaint;

 

In looking at an individual case we will assess when the time limits start from.

 

I hope this is useful.

 

Kind regards,

 

Emma

[papadak]

Hi,

 

Does anyone out there know if it is possible to claim Business a/c bank charges back from Coutts Bank?

Edited April 23, 2009 by papadak
typo

[GuidoT]

Although each bank has its own terms and conditions that may result in different outcomes, for now I would say it matters not who you bank with.

 

Coutts, you must be a bit special . Never seen a claim against these.

[MARTIN3030]

No me either I cant imagine anyone with the clout to have an account with them struggling for a few hundred quid.

Tho stranger things have happened-I heard a rumour that Cobbetts had offered a claimant 75% of his claim......tho it WAS ONLY a rumour and so as yet unconfirmed.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Martin,

 

We're just about to make a request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a copy of the original agreement and original terms and conditions for the Natwest business account we discussed earlier. However I have just realised does the Consumer Credit Act cover business customers?

 

TheyrCriminals

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello TC!

 

We're just about to make a request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a copy of the original agreement and original terms and conditions for the NatWest business account we discussed earlier. However I have just realised does the Consumer Credit Act cover business customers?

I think it will depend on the type and size of Business, i.e. if a Limited Company, then I would say probably not, almost certainly not I'd think.

 

But if a Sole Trader or a Partnership of 3 or less people (2 people being the effective minimum as you can't have a Partnership with less than 2, or you end up with a Sole Trader!), both Trading Styles are still classed as Consumers.

 

See The Consumer Credit Act 2006 when this was recently re-clarified:

 

Agreements regulated under the 1974 Act etc.

 

1 Definition of “individual”

 

In section 189(1) of the 1974 Act (definitions) for the definition of “individual” substitute—“‘individual’ includes—

 

(a) a partnership consisting of two or three persons not all of whom are bodies corporate; and

 

(b) an unincorporated body of persons which does not consist entirely of bodies corporate and is not a partnership;”.

 

Then it will depend on the usual issues if a bank account is covered by the CCA etc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW