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    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
    • I've now chopped the original statement as attached. I haven't included 'the law' as I assumed that was fully covered in my skeleton arguement, which I also assumed would be a supporting document in my bundle. Or should the two be merged? 22Jun24 anonymised completed WX statement @ 1843.pdf
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Evri Court Claim - Lost Parcel worth £123 **SETTLED BEFORE COURT FULL AMOUNT+FEES**


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Hi Everyone,

I'm currently going through the process of the court claim for Evri (and i'm very grateful for this forum!). Quick background but it's pretty standard to all the others on here -

- Evri lost a parcel containing a ring sold on ebay for £123
- Evri arguing that they don't owe the value because I didn't purchase additional insurance
- This one was directly through Evri (no 3rd party)

I've read up a lot and understand all the arguments. My confusion however is the difference between the witness statement and the skeleton argument - and when to share what.

I'm at the stage now where the court want the following -

Send all of the documents that are relevant to your case to the court at the above address, also send them to the other side. Both parties must do this.These documents should be placed in date order and should be numbered in the bottom right hand corner. You should include the following documents if available:  A copy of the contract/agreement  Relevant correspondence, including text messages and emails

Send to the court and send to the other party your own witness statement and also witness statements from anyone who can give Before 4pm 26 June 2023 Page 1 of 2 relevant evidence about your case. Both parties must do this. A witness statement must  have the court case number at the top  start with the witness’ name and address  it must contain numbered paragraphs and should be typed and double spaced. If not typed, it must be written clearly in block capitals or printed.  finish with the words “I believe the facts set out above to be true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth”, the date of the statement and the person’s signature. The original statement must be sent to the court and copies must be sent to the other side.


I've already created my skeleton argument and court bundle but this is not the stage for that I think? So I've just created this witness statement based on a previous one on here, but it doesn't feel enough (especially compared with the skeleton which breaks down everything and there insurance argument). Could someone have a quick look and let me know (I've removed any personal identification for this copy).

Also for a side note that I didn't realise when I submitted the claim. The ring sold for £123 (and I have the proof of this from ebay), this is the amount I opened the claim for plus postage cost and court costs. However, what I didn't realise is that when I did post it I put the value as £120. I know its only £3 difference as at the time I probably just rounded it - any advise on what to do here? Hopefully they won't look at this different because of that value difference?

Thanks all for your help! Really appreciate is.



Witness Statement - Forum.docx

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Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

I'm copying and pasting this from another thread that was started earlier, from BankFodder.

Please will you post up your claim form in PDF format and also their defence.

Cover up your name and address to keep this anonymous for you.

Best, HB

 

  • Thanks 1

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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just exchange WS's by the allotted time

hold your skeleton for later.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Update for anyone interested - Evri have offered to pay the full amount.

Today (before the court dates even been set) Evri emailed saying as a gesture of good will they’ll pay £127.39 - the value of the package plus postage.

I immediately turned them down stating I was looking for court fees as well. Within a hour they came back with the full amount 🎉.

I wasn’t expecting not to hear anything from them until we had a court date set and close to that day, so this was a good surprise today.

Happy to help others in similar positions with Evri if you need it!

Edited by Jam1313
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well done!

please remember to donate if you can.

we are free

our advice is free

we don't get paid

however try telling that to our ISP provider and our server hosts....

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Evri Court Claim - Lost Parcel worth £123 **SETTLED BEFORE COURT FULL AMOUNT+FEES**
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