Taking Ryanair to small claims court ***Success***

[garygumps]

Hi everyone,

 

I am considering taking Ryanair to small claims court (SCC).  I have been refused compensaton under EU261quoting the usual "exceptional circumstances" excuse and they have stonewalled/refused to correspond any further.

After some research I have decided to take them straight to SCC and would like to quote some ealier rulings regarding in particular that the "knock on effect" is not sufficient.  Thinking ahead, is it ok to just quote the case or do I need the full transcript of the ruling.  I have been able to get a few case headlines but can't seem to track down online a copy of the actual ruling.

 

Thank you

 

Gary

[garygumps]

Sorry, I should have explained.  Will try to keep this as brief as possible.

 

Flight was delayed due to weather initially.  After 3 hours flight was moved to depart from another airport and busses were to be arranged but to cut a long story short Ryanair, in my opinion (and over 100 other passengers), failed to provide this transport due to some logistical error on their part.  The plane took off from the other airport some 12 hours later with about 10 passengers on board.

Ryanair offered no assistance as per EU261 and we were basically left to arrange our own way home.  Finally took off over 30 hours later.  Ryanair have claimed exceptional circumstances due to weather causing a knock on effect to their schedule.  At least 2 other flights from other airlines took off from original airport during delay.

 

So I'm looking to claim back the costs I had to pay out in new flights and accommodation and expenses to get home plus €400 *2 as standard compensation under EU261.  Ryanair have refunded part of my original fare for unused flight.

 

Total amount I would be looking to claim would be just over £1000.

[garygumps]

Thank you VAUBAN and FTMDave.

Flight was scheduled to leave Krakow and was moved to Katowice, about an hour away.

The way I see it is that Ryanair are hiding behind delays due to weather (it was foggy) which lead to knock on delays to their tight schedule.  Their usual fob off excuse.

 

Firstly, I'm willing to fight them on the legality of the extraordinary circumstances excuse in that I'm sure there is precedent that the "knock on" aspect has been overuled on several occasions (hence my original request for rulings).  The delay to my flight was not caused directly by "bad weather" because some flights did leave Krakow.

 

Secondly, and this is my main bugbear, the fact that Ryanair failed to provide transport to Katowice caused the whole situation.  They then failed to adhere to EU261 by failing to provide care and assistance.

[garygumps]

Thank you Dave.

That is interesting.  You said your experience was positive.  Did you successfuly claim anything in your case?

 

From what I have garnered from research, you would be correct in your assumption that the proceedure to transfer passengers to another airport is not a one off.  This happens quite frequently in Krakow so should be a well oiled plan.  Indeed on the night in question there were I estimate some 10 flights from Ryanair and other airlines that were using this proceedure and they all seemed to get away ok.

It is obvious that there has been some sort of logistical screwup.

As I say, their excuse about the weather is a red herring here.

[garygumps]

Exactly, and this is the whole crux of my complaint.  They failed spectacularly in all aspects and why I feel I have a good case.  My own travel insurance has refused a claim as they feel Ryanair are wholly liable in the circumstances.

 

I will be sending a LBA shortly and keep you up to date as my case progresses.

 

Thanks for all the input so far.

Just one last question.  I only have anecdotal evidence of the number of passengers (10ish) that actually made the eventual flight.  Is there anywhere that I can verify this?

[garygumps]

My insurers rejected my claim as they came to the conclusion that it was Ryanairs fault that I was not transported to the new airport, which of course it was !   According to their definitions the bus would've had to break down or be delayed somehow.  Simply not turning up is not covered!

[garygumps]

OK, 2 week deadline for LBA has been and gone so time to submit small claim.

 

Just one last request for advice for filing.

All down the line I have been asking for compensation under EU261/04 for delay over 3 hours (€400 per person) AND also for expenditure to book new flights home, hotel stay and refreshments during delay.

 

Is this reasonable or should I stick to the expenditure part?

Edited February 29, 2020 by garygumps

[garygumps]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Just to clarify I was asking about what I should claim for in the small claim.

 

I have written off the insurance angle even though I don't agree.  i've asked them twice to reconsider but they are final in their response.  The policy was cheap and I suppose you get what you pay for in that regard!  Lesson learned.

 

Regarding Ryanairs address, from previous research I think that I can use their office at Stansted as their registered address.  That is where I sent the LBA.

[garygumps]

Update.

 

I lodged a small claim online on 1st March.  Ryanair were given a return date of 13th April.

 

I have today received a letter from a firm of solicitors claiming to act for Ryanair UK Ltd.  This is who I named in my court papers with an address at Stansted Airport.

 

This firm states that I am claiming against the wrong company.  They say it should be Ryanair DAC which is an Irish company.  The solicitors claim that Ryanair UK is a "separate, dormant company which does not operate an airline and does not have any liability to pay expenses in relation to your flight"

They say thay are happy for me to amend my claim to change the defendant to Ryanair DAC but I must inform the court of this myself.

 

They then go on to ask me to provide receipts for my expenditure.

 

I am confused and would like some advice on how to proceed.  Is this a stalling tactic?  If I am claiming against the wrong company, why do they want receipts?

 

Thank you

[garygumps]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Andyorch, yours links suggest, the way I read it, that I should use Euro Small Claims Proceedure ESCP?  Can this run parallel with UK online Small Claim?

 

Manxman, I too think there is a positive chink of light here.  If they are so confident that my claim would fail, why give me advice or way forward?  Why not just either dispute the claim by the return date or just ignore it altogether, the usual Ryanair method.  Why even ask for receipts?  

I have opened up correspondence with them just for interest but have made clear that my return date of 13th April remains in play.

[garygumps]

I have contacted the court and they tell me they are happy to change defendant name and re-serve papers to new address in Dublin but this would obviously reset the return date at 6 weeks.  I will think this over.

 

In the meantime I have opened up correspondence with this firm of solicitors as, from their language, I am "slightly" hopeful that they may settle.

[garygumps]

Ok, wee update.

 

Although the solicitors claim their clients are not liable and have asked for receipts, they have filed an Notice of Dispute to keep with the court proceedure in the event of it going further.

 

The response they have given is some 40 pages!  They have gone to great lengths to emphasise that the flight delay was due to extraordinary circumstances (weather) and have supplied extensive flight data and weather reports.  Quite daunting actually and I am surprised they have gone to such bother to be honest.

They are quoting Montreal Convention and quoted some case law to support their stance.

They have also asked for my case to be dismissed because I have only put my name on the papers (there was myself and my partner) and have not supplied my partners name (even though this data is held by them on the original booking).

They are also stating that I am being unreasonable because I did not accept their refusal to pay compensation ans issue court proceedure.

The sting in the tail is that they are looking £350 in costs!

 

I'm a bit taken aback really as I thought that I was not liable for costs beyond the initail claim fee.  Can they do this?

 

[garygumps]

Thanks FTMDave, I would like to see what you did.

 

Well another update.  After supplying receipts to this solicitor, surprise surprise, their clients Ryanair UK who claim not to have liability but submitted a 40 page defence have come back with same answer.  Basically because I accepted a refund this absolves them of any blame.  Their literature seems to suggest that I got a refund during the delay but I did not apply for it UNTIL I got back home.

 

Actually, looking back through their material, it is all weather related with facts, figures etc and goes a long way explaining how Ryanair laid on a reserve plane and changed their poor, poor tight schedule to try and facilitate their passengers.  My heart bleeds!  They are claiming the weather as extraordinary circumstances and quoting case law were it has been ruled that safety overides everything else.  I am not disputing their was fog but other flights took off on the day and fog at Krakow is a common occurance so hardly "extraordinary".  The basis of my claim is for reimbursemnt of expenses incurred by their failure to provide transport to the other airport as arranged.

Thankfully, also, they supplied flight data for the plane which shows that the passenger total for the flight was 10!  Pretty conclusive evidence that they failed to bus over 100 odd people to Katowice airport from Krakow.

 

Upon further review of the clause in which they claim costs, this is under any party being "unreasonable".  Their grounds for me being unreasonable are that I did not accept their answer and go away and had the audacity to (a) issue proceedings and (b)not withdraw them.

 

I have asked the court to amend the respondent details so will see how that pans out.

[garygumps]

Quote

As I've stated, we were told that flight had been moved and to await transport by coach.

This never happened as proven by the fact that the flight had only 10 passengers on board when it finally took off.  I think thats pretty conclusive proof that over 100 passengers were failed by Ryanair.

I get your point about having to travel to Ireland to "sue" and fully expect them to use this excuse, but I believe that as an EU citizen still that I am entitled to use my local court jurisdiction.

[garygumps]

Update time....

 

Return date was 9th of June, waited 10 days and applied for default decree which was duly issued on 19th June.  

 

Fully expect Ryanair to either ignore it or appeal tbh so will have to go down the enforcement route which I expect to cost around £300!!!

Will give them until end of July.

[garygumps]

Well surprise surprise!

about a week after my default decree was issued, Ryanair have lodged a notice of dispute and my decree has been set aside?

i have asked the court if this is fair and allowed and I still have not received a copy of the dispute itself?

I am assuming that the small claims court is very lenient about missing deadlines and would be very interested in the dates involved on the paperwork?

 

Sorry ericsbrother I should have answered your question.

My claim is for around £1100 

[garygumps]

Hi

I suppose it would be time for an update.

To cut a long story short the case is in COVID hell!!  Lol

What happened was that the court “forgot” about the original Notice of Dispute before issuing my decree.

Obviously when Ryanair received the decree they fired it off to Oracle Solicitors who then cried to the court about their Notice of Dispute and so the court then set aside the decree and the case has been transferred to my local court for a hearing.

 

Since then I have been asking the court if I can “transfer” my case to European Small Claims Proceedure (ESCP) as this is mainly paper based and doesn’t require a hearing thereby negating any COVID implications?  

If I try to initiate a claim on ESCP website the UK is greyed out due to Brexit.  

So, it seems that new claims are not possible.

 

However, I have confirmed that if I get a decree in my favour, it CAN be enforced in Republic of Ireland for a small fee.

 

I have jumped through every hoop that Ryanair have put in place and am just waiting on the court to get back to me but everything is SO slow at the minute due to Covid.

 

I still think I have a good case as all of Ryanair’s defence is based on bad weather which I can completely bypass as my complaint is that transport was not provided as promised and I have flight passenger data and other passenger witness statements to back me up!

[garygumps]

Oh yes the court reissued papers to Ryanair DAC. Just had to wait for any reply which of course did not happen as Oracle Solicitors, who claim not to represent Ryanair DAC, but obviously do as they lodged a Dispute “on behalf” of them way back at the start which the court has still accepted?

[garygumps]

Hi Scourge of Ryanair,

 

Thanks for your support.

As I said, the case is in limbo at the moment until court services get back to "normal".  I am happy enough with this.  I never really got a satisfactory reply back about the ESCP but because I can enforce any judgement in ROI I am happy to  continue with my current action.

 

I am all prepared for any hearing and feel I have a good case.  I am looking forward to completely sidestepping Ryanairs defence of bad weather etc. and focussing on their failure to provide the transport, as propmised, to the new departure airport.  I have many witness statements from fellow passengers and news reports to back this up and also Ryanairs own flight data showing only 10 passengers made the flight.

Edited November 25, 2020 by garygumps

[garygumps]

No update I'm afraid.

All SmallCLaim actions are on hold in the courts here in NI.

 

Who knows when things might get back to some sort of normal?   I'm reckoning at least back end of this year at the earliest.

 

As I said I've done all I can and just waiting to hear from the court about a hearing date.

 

Gary

[garygumps]

Hi Scourge,

No, no mentions of birdstrikes.  Their whole defence was blamed on fog which caused "uncontrollable" delays and cancellations and rearrangment of flights, spare aircraft ect.    All well and good but they failed spectacularly in transporting passengers as promised to these new arrangements.

 

Yes, the solicitors quoted £350 as cost of them preparing this defence.

[garygumps]

Hi Scourge,

 

Actually I decided to look over their defence again as it had been a long time and there is a few sections about birdstrikes!

 

To be honest I never replied to their defence asI was under the impression that I would be doing this at court at the hearing when I could argue that their defence was missing the point entirely.

 

If you like, I could send you a copy of their defence for you to look through?  Perhaps then you could see if it is a generic template that you may have comeacross before?

[garygumps]

Thanks.

I wil PM you the file

[garygumps]

Sorry Bankfodder, didn't realise I could post this on the open forum.

[garygumps]

Here is a copy of the "defence" for anyone to have a look at and advise.

Many thanks group!

 

Gary

NOTICE OF DISPUTE redacted.pdf