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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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CPP ANPR PCN - overstay MOTO Heston East - Fell asleep


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You don't have to pay them unless they take you to court and win. That's not a certainty, but it makes life a little more awkward that you named yourself as the driver.

 

But all is not lost. I'll have another look at this tomorrow and make some comments on your options.

 

Do you pass this services on a regular basis by any chance?

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Right then Rhino, first a couple of observations, and then I'm setting you some homework :lol:

 

This is the approach to Heston East. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.488471,-0.3922728,3a,75y,92.69h,87.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTYMYbRawT6EsGh8RVwpAJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

As we can see from that, there is, as you come off the M4, a speed limit of 40mph. Now, whilst this is a limit and not a target, it must be accepted that (smaller) vehicles (at least) will be travelling at at least 30mph as they reach the top of the exit slip, which is where the parking sign is that sets out the Terms & Conditions and therefore (so they say) forms the contract.

 

Here it is... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4883128,-0.3905047,3a,60y,90.47h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-aMEoEz2rfr_faZxPa2rbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Good luck with reading that from a moving vehicle, never mind understanding and agreeing to it!

 

 

Now then, for your homework.

 

Heston East is in the London Borough of Hounslow. You can start by looking at their planning portal. http://planning.hounslow.gov.uk/planning_user_accept.aspx? to find any and all planning applications, approvals, refusals and anything else related to Heston East.

 

What you're looking for in particular is planning applications and approvals made by CPP for their ANPR Cameras and all of their signage. These are applied for and approved under two different planning regimes, general planning and advertising consent (respectively) and cannot be covered under deemed consent. So they MUST have been granted planning consent for either to be there legally. A contract cannot be formed by an illegal act. So if they've broken planning laws, there is no contract regardless of what they may claim.

 

Also, you're looking for any planning applications, approvals and/or variations on any time limits for parking.

 

You may find that planning permission for the car parks was granted with no arbitrary time limits (unrestricted parking). And therefore it's either Moto or CPP that have introduced a time restriction. Whilst they might like to, they can't do that (lawfully) without varying the planning permission for the site.

 

If you can't find anything on the planning portal, then you're going to have to phone Hounslow council (Planning Department) on Monday 020 8583 5555 and you need to ask for details of all of the above. So...

 

Planning consent for ANPR cameras.

Advertising consent for all of the parking signs.

Planning consent and any variations of time limits for parking.

 

Don't contact Moto or CPP again for now, get the above information back to this thread and we can look at what they do (or don't (which is more likely)) have and formulate a plan from there.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Nothing they needed approved there, so looks like it's a call on Monday.

 

Well, that's telling :lol:

 

The council, if they don't really know what they're talking about (surprisingly, some don't) will say something about "deemed consent". There's no such thing once your advertising signage exceeds a certain size, which is quite small, they need specific permission for each sign (which can be on the same application/consent).

 

If they don't have planning consent then the signs and/or ANPR cameras are placed in breach of the law. And if a party (in this case CPP) attempts to create a contract (their T&C's for parking) that was based on an illegal act (no planning consent) then the contract cannot be enforced. It really is as simple as that.

 

Whilst they can apply for retrospective planning consent for the ANPR cameras, the same is not true of the advertising signage. There is no such thing as retrospective consent for advertising, so any claim that they made in court would be doomed to failure. Though this shouldn't be the only point of your defence as some Judges still don't get it.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Just make sure the council don't confuse the two sites (East & West bound). Whilst it's doubtful, CPP/Moto may have applied for planning permission for one side. If that had been granted, they might have assumed that it applies to both. It doesn't.

 

I won't mention the area (so that they can't change it before anyone challenges it), but there's a big retail outlet near me which is "Managed" by ParkingLie.

 

There are two very distinct car parks, separated by a road, roundabout and about 300 metres. So they must be separate sites even if they're on the same retail park. They do have planning permission for signs and ANPR on one of the sites, but not the other.

 

Just waiting now for someone to get 'caught out' on that second site and post here :evil:

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Oh Dear!

 

Well, if they choose to take you to court over this, their case has already hit the iceberg. It's now just a question of how fast it's sinking :lol:

 

That won't be your only line of defence, but it'll put one hell of a hole in their case.

 

Sit back and wait for all the begging & threatening letters now. Keep them, don't reply to any of them, but do keep this thread updated with any further developments.

 

 

I know that it would mean a trip to the archives for someone at the council planning department. But it really would be good to know if there were any parking restrictions (ie. any specific period for free parking) on the original application/consent. I'd put money on there being absolutely none.

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Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Perhaps, also. If it ever get's near a court. Moto and/or CPP will be able to explain to the Judge exactly what this means in relation to a (seemingly self imposed) 2 hour free parking limit and road safety.

 

I'm sure the Judge would love to know :lol:

 

2618017495_786458af08_m.jpg

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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It’s going to be a bit difficult to receive red nasty letters and not do anything about it

 

The way to look at it is that you're not doing nothing. You're letting them waste their money. :wink:

 

It'll give you a warm glow inside when you see how desperate they are by seeing quite how much money they're prepared to t̶h̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ waste. I've got almost a whole drawer full of letters from PPC's, DCA's and their pet/fake Solicitors. They've probably spent hundreds of pounds chasing me for money I don't owe :lol:

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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