court case for refusing to give details - Cardiff speeding PCN

[CrappoMan]

Did the paperwork not state the time of the offence ? You should be able to work out who was driving at that time.

 

And if you really can't remember, just decide between you who should take the hit. One of you might be eligible for a speed awareness course, hint hint.

[CrappoMan]

Have you ever run a small company before ? If you have, you will realise that we have a little more to worry about than who was driving at that particular time...

As you are operating a vehicle commercially, you have a legal responsibility to know exactly who is behind the wheel of each of your vehicles at ALL times.

 

... back and forth to the suppliers and drove by the said camera at least 5 times each...

So you have delivery/collection notes/reciepts with times on them that you can match up to the PCN time ?

 

Can you remember what you had for dinner at work 4 weeks ago?

If I had a legal responsibility to keep records of my daily food intake, you bet I could!

 

It sounds like you dont keep proper records, like daily vehicle inspection sheets or vehicle handover records for when you change driver or licence check records. There is a reason why these kinds of records are important.

Just pray you don't get stopped by DVSA, they will take a dim view of a commercial operator not keeping proper records.

 

This IS constructive criticism. Hindsight is always 20/20, but that won't help you if your vehicle goes off road and injures someone, or worse, and you can't show the correct records to the DVSA/HSE/Police.

 

But back to your problem: even if you can't work out who was driving, someone will have to admit to it.

[CrappoMan]

You just need to remember not to stand up in court, as a commercial vehicle operator, and say that you don't know and don't have a record of who was driving. That's a no-no. It's acceptable for a private individual in their own vehicle, but not a commercial vehicle operator.

 

I asked about the receipts so you could match up the times with the PCN and find out if anyone remembers carrying certain cargo.

 

The photo only helps you, not the police, so don't expect any help from them. They don't care about making it easier for you, only convicting someone of something, whether it's the original speeding or the S172 offence.

 

Yes, someone who might have been driving and would be eligible for a lesser penalty should have copped for it originally, as long it wasn't a blatant lie and they genuinely think they might have been driving at the time.

 

And for the record, I am responsible for 28 vehicles at work; 1 car, 1 tacho'd HGV and 26x 3.5 ton vans so I know about the importance and the burden of correct record keeping, but one day it might keep you out of jail. I get on average 6 PCN's and 1 NIP each month and can deal with each one in less than 5 mins.

[CrappoMan]

There isn't a list of things you need to do, it varies between companies, but think what information would the HSE/DVSA/Police want in the event one of your vehicles caused an injury/death. You need to show that you are managing any risks, not just with your vehicles but with your drivers and your cargo too.

 

There is some stuff to read,

Driving at work - http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/19/contents.

Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/37/contents

 

Your vehicles are Nissan NV200's, which have an unladen weight of just under 1300kg.

Do you pull trailers ? Maybe generators ?

If so, would they take your combined unladen weight over 1525kg ? Is the trailer over 1020kg ?

If yes to both, you need an operators 'O' licence, and some expert advice and training.

 

Do you licence check your drivers annually ? If they have points do you check them more regularly ? say 6pts - check every 6months, 9pts+ check every 3months. It might sound like overkill, but if they get disqualified and don't tell you, how will you know ? You may still not find out for 3months, but at least you are taking reasonable measures to find out. You will need to use the D796 form to get authority to do the checks.

 

Do you have colour copies of their licence, print outs of the dvla licence check page, category entitlements and points ? A risk assessment for the type of work/driving they do ?

 

Have a lever arch file with all your drivers info in it and if the worst happens you can just hand it over to the authorities.

 

As for your vehicles, have a lever arch file for each vehicle with copies of legal documents (V5, tax, mot), garage repair sheets, daily walkround check sheets, and the folder can be handed over if needed.

 

You must ensure your vehicle is safe to drive before setting off on a journey. You should carry out a walkaround check of the vehicle every day. If something happens, the sheet will show that the driver checked the vehicle before they set off that day and any defects can be put on the sheet for you to rectify.

 

It's all about having the information to hand if the worst happens. Saying 'I don't know' won't be accepted. It's like insurance, if you get to the point of needing it without already having it, it's too late.

 

There have been some court cases over vehicle safety issues, with some lengthy sentences:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/lansdown_lane_-_men_convicted_of_unlawful_killings/

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/crane_hire_company_is_sentenced_for_corporate_manslaughter/

https://sm.britsafe.org/companies-ordered-pay-%C2%A3794658-over-runaway-lorry-death