Lees v HFC (Household Bank)

[LeeS80]

Hi All,

 

Bit of background:

 

Started loan in Oct-2000, defaulted Nov-2003. Bank called me to go in, offered me a "re-structured loan". Basically, less payments over longer period. I took it and am currently paying this back, since Feb-2005 according to my credit report.

 

Couple of things I didn't know was the loan I had was stopped and a new one created, called a "Credit Sale Fixed Term" - I have no idea what this is even after trying to google it. This wasn't explained to me and the original account now shows as defaulted but the credit file has only been updated to March-2005.

 

The newer agreement with them shows file updated to Oct-2006 with no missed payments, which is correct.

 

Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with HFC?

[pford]

Your in the same boat as me HFC did the same with me

[LeeS80]

Hi pford,

 

What action did you take against HFC?

[pford]

read all about it here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/26922-default-removal-ford-hfc.html

[LeeS80]

Received a letter today from HFC. They can't locate my original agreement. I've never disputed the debt, but in the letter it states that my original account was closed to prevent the debt being registered as a bad debt and a new account opened in place of it.

 

Now, am I right in thinking that a default should certainly not have been placed on my account with regards to my first account with them? I didn't default on it as I was paying 50% of the original monthly payment. They actually say that it was a preventative measure on their part to setup another account to prevent this happening.

 

Any suggestions chaps and chapesses?

 

Cheers,

Lee

[LeeS80]

bump

[LeeS80]

Anyone out there? I'm about to send a letter today asking for the default to be removed from my credit file, on the grounds that as there is no legal agreement, they cannot process data about me.

 

"

Dear Ms Bond,

Account No. xxxxxx

Thank you for your letter dated 22nd November 2006.

I was somewhat disappointed to read that HFC was unable to locate an original agreement for account number xxxxxx. Are you able to provide me with a copy of an agreement for separate account number xxxxxxx?

In relation to account number xxxxxx I would ask that the default and any reference to the account be removed from my credit file. I would also like to point out that I did not receive at any time a default notice from HFC. For credit information to be held, there has to be a legally signed agreement and as stated in your letter of 22nd November 2006, HFC cannot locate such an agreement.. As there is no such agreement in place, you are not permitted to hold information regarding myself. I would ask that this request is adhered to within 14 days from the receipt of this letter.

I look forward to hearing from you,

Yours faithfully"

Does this look ok folks??

[LeeS80]

reply received today in the post:

 

"Thank you for your recent contact informing me of your complaint.

 

Your comments are extremely valuable to me and I am concerned that you are unhappy with HFC Bank.

I am personally addressing the issues that you have raised and will carry out an investigation of the situation on your behalf. I will examine the background carefully and reply to you shortly.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of our internal complaint procedure for your information.

 

Yours sincerely"

 

Anyone had similar letters relating to defaults?

[LeeS80]

Hi All,

 

Fairly important update I think!!

 

Just called the complaints dept to chase up - they're not taking calls for complaints until 4pm!!

 

Anyway, wasn't happy so called the local branch. They say they can locate original agreement for the loan that is SETTLED (with a default) but the other "good will loan" was done over the phone and they don't have any paperwork for it. Nada. Nothing. It was good will they say.

 

Anyone got any suggestions what I should do next?

 

As always feedback appreciated!

 

Lee

[johno1066]

Hi All,

 

Fairly important update I think!!

 

Just called the complaints dept to chase up - they're not taking calls for complaints until 4pm!!

 

Anyway, wasn't happy so called the local branch. They say they can locate original agreement for the loan that is SETTLED (with a default) but the other "good will loan" was done over the phone and they don't have any paperwork for it. Nada. Nothing. It was good will they say.

 

Anyone got any suggestions what I should do next?

 

As always feedback appreciated!

 

Lee

 

 

If there's no paperwork then surely there's no agreement and subsequently no loan to pay. It would be interesting if you wrote to them informing them that as there's no agreement between you, then you owe them nothing and subsequently will no be paying any more into their coffers, how qucikly it would take them to find the orignal paperwork or indeed agreement.

[LeeS80]

Hi Johno,

 

They seem to think they can locate the original loan agreement, which shows a balance of "satisfied" on the credit report. They are completely confident that there is no agreement in place for the second loan, because they did it over the phone. I didn't sign anything at all.

 

I'm waiting until after christmas to see what their reply is going to be. I'll post any updates as and when.

[johno1066]

Hi LeeS80

 

If there's not a signed credit agreement then there isn't a credit agreement at all.

[LeeS80]

Something else I've just noticed. Reading back through a letter received from them in November, this paragraph stands out:

 

"The above account went into arrears March 2001 and we accepted reduced payments. However to prevent the account being registered as a bad debt the account was closed in February 2005 and account number xxx set up in its place."

 

The bit in bold is what stood out - there is a default registered on account no.1 yet they are clearly stating here they setup a second acct to prevent this happening.

 

Would this carry any weight in my quest against HFC? They actually say the reason another acct was setup, yet still defaulted it.

[LeeS80]

Got my reply from HFC today, they have the agreement for second loan with them - which is fine. I don't have a problem with paying what I owe. They have refused point blank to remove my default from the CRA files because, and wait for it:

 

"Although we are unable to locate your legal agreement, this would have been signed in the Birkenhead Branch of HFC in October 2xxx. By signing the agreement you agreed to the use of your information"

 

This is a pretty poor response. I will proceed to send another letter, stating relevant sections regarding damage and stress. If they still don't comply, I'd love to take them to court, just to see how they intend to defend their comments without any sort of agreement! Any comments folks?

[LeeS80]

Hi All,

 

Does this look ok?

 

"

It would appear that the response to my letter dated 6th December is a standard template. I believe the date you refer to as 22 October 2006 should actually read 2003? I am disappointed to read that you are not able to remove the information from my credit file in relation to account number 4607255.

In your letter dated 22nd November 2006, you state that you accepted reduced payments but to prevent the account being registered as a bad debt opened account number 28900736. If this is correct, why has the default still been registered? It would be deemed as misleading information at the very least. It might further be read that it is intended to influence my decision to sign a new agreement.

You state that the agreement I would have signed in October 2000 would show that I agree to the use of my information. I am sure you will agree that without such agreement being produced then I cannot be sure of this. I would also remind you that for data to be processed there has to be a legal contract between myself and HFC. If the agreement said to be signed in October 2000 should indicate my permission to process data, this would only have been for the duration of the agreement and not beyond.

I am aware that you will assume a right to hold information about the account conduct for six years. This is not a legal right in either common or statute law and I would draw this to your attention. If you believe HFC has a legal right to process information after the termination of an agreement I would kindly ask for confirmation of this and for you to prove which common or statute law allows this.

As you may be aware, I am afforded principled rights under the Data Protection Act (Data Protection Act), Schedule 1, Part 1 ("The Principles") in relation to the manner in which my data is collated, stored and processed. Of particular note, are Principles 3, 4 and 5:

 

“3. Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed.

4. Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date.

 

5. Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes.”

 

 

HFC is still processing data after the cancellation of the contract, whether or not this is a simple renewal process of the default flag, daily or by other timing factor. As that contract is no longer in situ, then my written permission has also ceased from the date of cancellation.

This is confirmed in Principle 2 of the Data Protection Act, which states:

"2. Personal data shall be obtained only for one or more specified and lawful purposes, and shall not be further processed in any manner incompatible with that purpose or those purposes."

I emphasise the term "specified and lawful purposes" as in ‘those specified within the contract’, and no more. I also emphasise the term "shall not be further processed".

The credit reference agencies will not remove the data without your instruction. I will again re-iterate my request for the removal of all information regarding the above account number from my credit file. Should I not receive a positive response within 7 days of receipt of this letter then I will initiate county court proceedings for the removal of this information."

[LeeS80]

bump

[johno1066]

Your letter looks good Lee,

[LeeS80]

Cheers johno, it arrived with HFC this morning recorded signed for Will be prepared to take this to a court if need be, I want my credit rating & life back!!

[rosierose]

You know what I think about this one Lee... Good Luck

[roboraver]

Hi Lee, am reading your thread with interest as I am about to do the same for my mum who took out a loan in 1987 !! despite repeated letters asking them for statements and original agreement forms they refuse to send it !

[Scooby_Doo2]

Hi Lee, am reading your thread with interest as I am about to do the same for my mum who took out a loan in 1987 !! despite repeated letters asking them for statements and original agreement forms they refuse to send it !

 

Hi Roboraver

 

I used to work for HFC in their branch network for many years and I am also watching this thread with interest!

 

The legal agreements signed when the accounts are opened are kept in fireproof cabinets. Often there is no filing system for the legal agreements and many are lost or mislaid. Older agreements, especially from 1987 will be very difficult to locate.

 

HFC branches (now re-branded as Beneficial Finance) do not employ any admin or back room staff. A typical branch has a Branch Manager and 3 Customer Account Managers (salespeople). They neither have the time, nor the inclination to search for a legal agreement in a cabinet that contains thousands of pieces of paper. They are too busy trying to reach their sales targets. Unfortunately, finding your legal agreement will not pay them any bonus, however, not hitting a sales target will get them a hiding from the Regional Manager!

 

In response to LeeS80, if they cannot provide the legally binding contract, they don't have a leg to stand on. They have also clearly stated in writing that they took action to prevent your account being registered as a bad debt. A default is a bad debt and will make it harder for you to obtain credit.

 

Also, the letter you received on 16th December is their standard response to any complaint - it's called an Acknowledgment Letter. It's the first stage of their internal complaints process. They should issue you a final response within 8 weeks of receipt of your complaint, or issue a further letter explaining why they are unable to resolve your complaint and when they expect to resolve it. Once they issue a Final Response (their last word on the matter), it's time to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

You can of course take the matter up in the courts, with the Office of Fair Trading (who issue their Consumer Credit Licence) as well as the Information Commissioner.

 

From what I know of HFC Bank, the branch staff know very little of how to handle complaints correctly. Your letter quoting the principles of the Data Protection Act and statute law will go beyond the knowledge of the average Branch Manager and most Regional Managers. They do have some very knowledgable people in their Compliance and Complaints departments (in Winkfield and Birmingham) but they don't have enough of them.

 

Removal of the default is a simple process that even a Branch Manager has the authority to do - there is a Credit Reference Agency amendment form on their bulletin board which they complete and send.

 

As for renewing your account, they can make amendments to your existing contract (with your acceptance) but they cannot create a new agreement without you having signed it. Sometimes, the Collections Centre would re-write an account and a new legal agreement would be sent from and returned to there before the new account is setup. If that's what happened, your legal agreement would be there and not in the branch.

 

You may want to complete a full Subject Access Request to obtain all the information they hold about you. If they cannot produce and legal agreements, any loan accounts you have are unenforceable.