CH4 prog How to get a Council House. Any thoughts?

[estellyn]

No, the programme is not a repeat of last year, but an additional programme covering the difficulties posed by the benefit cap.

 

 

Shendor, I think you've made some assumptions about the people featured in the programme - from what I can remember, current circumstances were given, but there wasn't really information on their history.

 

 

I think what's been missed so far in this discussion, is that the benefits that have been considered 'in excess' and capped is actually as a result of rising rental prices in London and other (now) expensive areas to live, and that it is actually landlords who are making a huge profit from the housing benefit, not the claimants themselves. The rising prices plus the benefit cap and lack of social housing mean that London is being socially cleansed.

 

 

To see how quickly you could fall foul of the benefit cap if living in London and privately renting, just imagine you are a 'hard working person', they have three young kids and a partner who is at home with the kids. You had a good job which allowed you to live and pay rent, but not to save, in fact the high rental prices are what have prevented you saving. You are made redundant. You have no savings. If you don't get a job, you will eventually fall under the benefit cap. You get discretionary housing payments to start, but these are eventually withdrawn. You have been trying desperately to get a job, but are considered over qualified for menial jobs and there is huge competition for the jobs you're qualified for. You want to do training in another field, but the jobcentre/work programme won't let you. You fall behind in your rent and eviction proceedings are started. There is no housing you can afford in the area, and there are few jobs in your field outside of London - you are holding out hope that you will get a job. There is no social housing available in the area. Eventually you are being evicted, and finally the LA will house you in social housing - in Manchester or Birmingham or Hull.

 

 

Trying to assess worthiness is a dangerous game and is what the condems want you to do. Since you're not aware of all the person's circumstances, you're basically making a snap judgement on what you can see on the surface. With only a limited amount of jobs available at any one time and many more people jobless than jobs, it is logical that those who are most able, most qualified, most lucky, the right age group etc are going to get the jobs, and then what of the other people - are they less worthy of the barest amount of money to sustain life - and what of the kids - are you going to say poor people can't procreate, do you really want THAT type of society.

 

 

I don't know what the answers are, but I know at the moment we're going in the wrong direction, away from a fair and equal society where a person is valued for who they are and not what they are able to contribute.

[estellyn]

the bit that everyone seems to be missing here,these people in tower hamlets on benefits cant afford to live there now that the council has started capping benefits,this has been pointed out to them by the council employees that are employed by the council to tell them,these council employees probably don't live in London,because they cant afford to! this has been going on for years,Ive spoken to many many council employees that work in London and commute in to their jobs,they are sick to the back teeth of people on benefits getting their money and living all cosy while they have to commute in every day through the traffic jams to sort their problems out,its a joke!

 

 

So instead of blaming the government for not implementing rent controls and legislation to regulate the private rental industry, they are spending their energy blaming people who claim benefits for whatever reason. Sounds like the government system of pass the blame is working well.

 

 

So where should benefit claimants live in if not in London (or anywhere in decent housing as LHA only pays for the dregs of rented housing in any area). Are they saying there should be slum districts where people down on benefits should live, because that is where this could easily lead. And at what point should a person who has lost their job or can't work be moved to the slum district?

 

 

It's strange how right wing 'morality' allows people to be paid a pittance of money and live in a hovel, as long as the money they have is less than any working person, and the hovel they live in is worse than any working person's - well you can't have a 'non contributor', living better than a 'contributor'. Hey, I think I've found a whole new career path for people - being a 'fairness' inspector -

 

 

'well, I'm sorry sir, but there are working people in this street who can't afford to buy a new washing machine, so I'm afraid you can't have one. And that TV exceeds the maximum screen size allowed - poor working people in this area can only afford a 28 inch TV and you have a 32 inch. And what are you having for dinner sir? Steak your mum gave you as a present so you could have a nice anniversary meal? Well sorry, I'm going to have to take that as well, working people cannot afford steak, so present or not, you can't have it - here's a can of corned beef. And there really is hardly any mould on your walls, sir, and the rooms are far too large, you're far too comfortable here, I'm afraid we're going to have to move you and reclassify this as WPH - working poor housing. Don't worry, you'll be very happy 200 miles away in our special S&S housing (skivers and shirkers housing).'

[estellyn]

most of the people I ever met in tower hamlets were living cosy on benefits,I lived in that area for twenty years up until 2007,most folk I knew were on benefits and working casual in London,its got a lot tougher for people recently,working casual and being on benefits has been made a lot tougher as businesses are being fined more and there is less casual work around because of the influx of east European immigrants.

 

 

It must be the time of night but.... so you talked to most of the people you ever met in tower hamlets about their income and their benefits did you? That's really strange, because apart from professionally, I couldn't tell you the income source (for sure) of most of the people I've met in any of the places I've lived. Even work colleagues, I knew they had wages from work, but couldn't tell you the other benefits most of them claimed. You must lead a very strange life, going around talking to most of the people you meet about how they get money and the benefits they claim. Bizarre.

[estellyn]

I talked to enough people in tower hamlets to get the general idea!,thats why you see and hear of people,dont take my word for it estellyn,travelling from the other side of the world through several countries to get to the uk even if they have to stowaway in the back of lorries to get here!.must be some good reason for that!

Maybe they do that just to broaden their horizons.

 

 

No, you talked to a few people then combined the impressions you had from your discussions with reports in the media and then made assumptions about a large group of people - 240,000 people live in Tower Hamlets.

 

 

And people don't travel here hidden in lorries for our benefits system - they are illegal immigrants and can't claim benefits!

[estellyn]

no,I didn't combine any impressions,I know all about tower hamlets as I have been there many times,how many times have you been there? also,you will find that illegal immigrants do cost this country millions or are you living in cloud cuckoo land? they also commit a good percentage of the street crime in that area and that's before they get housed and their benefits sorted

 

 

How many people in tower hamlets have you personally spoken to socially about their benefits?

[estellyn]

• 155,000 illegal immigrants qualified for sickness benefits and maternity pay
  
• Work and Pensions Department did not ask for work permits when assessing certain claims
   
  

 

Tens of thousands of workers with no right to be in Britain have been claiming benefits thanks to an extraordinary loophole in the law.

Ministers have discovered that Labour allowed 155,000 illegal immigrants to qualify for sickness benefits and maternity pay. Government sources put the cost to the public purse at ‘tens of millions of pounds’

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356696/155k-illegal-workers-claiming-benefits-Law-loophole-costs-British-taxpayers-millions.html#ixzz2zGN8oiNI

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

 

Do you believe everything you read in the Daily Mail? It certainly explains your viewpoint.

 

 

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/illegal_workers_claiming_benefits-2506

Edited April 19, 2014 by citizenB
reduced font size

[estellyn]

legally so called illegals get vouchers while their asylum goes through,before they get their council house etc.

 

If they are asylum seekers, they are not illegal, are they?

 

 

Or should we turn away people who have been raped, tortured and in fear of their lives in their home country?

 

 

I worked with a former asylum seeker for a few years, what he and his family went through is unimaginable to most people living in the UK. Yes he went through the asylum system. I have no idea what housing he lived in, but he went on to work full time helping his community and others for the same charity I worked for. He was also highly intelligent and studying for a masters degree by the time I met him.

 

 

It's much harder to have prejudices when you get to know the individuals and stop looking at the 'group'.

[estellyn]

they get plenty benefits

 

 

You know, just repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true - show us some evidence.

[estellyn]

Ive already shown it estellyn,try and educate yourself its not my job.

 

 

I continue educating myself every day, thanks, as intelligent people try to do, but maybe you should read my post and article showing that your DM article (your stated 'evidence') was less than accurate and then provide a new source.

[estellyn]

Regarding Muslims wanting to live in their own communities and resisting 'integration'. The way I think about it is how would I feel if I lived in a country where lots of people were fearful, or hated, or were prejudiced or bigoted against people like me. Where I might be subject to verbal or physical abuse because of what I chose to wear or the religion I practiced. Well, taking these things into consideration, I think I would want to live somewhere I felt safe, among my own community to start with. Then I think I would find that the way I and people like me were treated and the way people like me were viewed and portrayed in the media would discourage me from wanting to 'integrate'. I would be telling my children to stay away from those that I felt might hurt them and discouraging them from making friends with people not like us. And the continual assault on my culture and religion would make me want to become more protective of it, not less. I might be constantly wary and distrustful of people not like me.

 

 

Ignorance breeds contempt, on both sides of this issue. I lived in Bury Park in Luton for a while, and yes I was treated with suspicion, as an outsider, but I could see how this view had come about and could sympathise. Sadly, contempt on both sides also breeds more hard lined views and violence (on both sides).

 

 

I really don't think it is feasible to break up communities like this by trying to move people out. I do believe, personally, that faith schools are not a good idea (even though I went to a fantastic faith school, they are not all like the school I went to). I think understanding of different cultures, religions and ways of life comes with being together and learning about each other and that schools and workplaces are an excellent place for that to happen. Of course where you have large communities of one culture or religion, it makes cultural and religious diversity in schools problematic.

 

 

Personally, I have found living and working in a cultural diverse society enriching. I take time to learn from the different people around me about their cultures and religion, and have found those around me to be very open to discussing their way of life and beliefs. Should housing policy try and force this type of interaction - I don't think you can force people to interact, but then the ghettoization of places like Bury Park in Luton and then the forming of groups such as the EDL really needs to be avoided.

 

 

I don't have all the answers - these are really difficult problems. But I think a good place to start is with ourselves, and try to at least start to tackle our own personal 'ignorance'.

[estellyn]

Well done Esteylln - a heartfelt, if a little naive, post.

 

I'm not talking about 'Muslims' as a block group. I'm talking about Sunni Muslims. I live in Tower Hamlets where without exception all the Shia/Shi'te Muslims from Iran and Turkey are getting on just fine. But there is a hardcore Sunni/ Wa'habi majority who have it in their culture to proselytize and change any society they find themselves in, and if they can't weed us out, they'll breed us out. It truly is a medieval blood cult. Most Muslims I know where I live who are Sh'ia find it really problematic too. A case in point being that a huge majority of the girls on the street wearing niqab and burkhas are third generation to the UK - their parents and grandparents tell them that they fought oppressive horror to get the right to uncover their faces, so why go back to it now?

 

I have no answers either. But I worry about this whole 'fake-liberal acceptance of everything for fear of being seen as intolerant' trip that you are on. It comes from the right place for sure, but wait till Saudi funded Islam is in the majority in London - see how far your platitudes get you then. lol.

 

 

I'm certainly not on any 'fake liberal acceptance trip'. All I do is put myself in another person's position and think 'how would I feel in that situation'. Just because I can understand the conclusions a person has come to, does not mean I agree with them - just means I understand how they got to that place - I understand how a right wing Tory gets to the views they have, doesn't mean I don't loathe their views. I hardly presented any platitudes - in fact I stated that I didn't know the answers for the difficult questions. And if you knew me, you'd realise I'm anything but naïve.

 

 

And perspective is everything - where I live it is the Sunni who are seen to be integrating and the Shia who are not. Many of the Muslim women I know, who didn't before, started wearing hijab or niqab because of the hostilities towards their religion both here and abroad - a way of affirming their faith and a protest against western society. Regardless of what their grandparents went through, they see their faith 'threatened' and some become more hard lined because of this. It is difficult for the younger generation who have never been there and lived it, to realise the horrors of being a woman living somewhere like Iran, they are too far removed in this country from the oppression faced by their grandparents, and it is naïve to think that some words from their grandparents will carry more weight than what they see and experience around them now.

 

 

A 'fake liberal acceptance trip' would indeed be damaging. Neither of us have any answers, but first we need to identify the issues and the causes before people wiser than me can attempt to come up with solutions

[estellyn]

I don't mean to sound rude, but you've just proved you don't really know what you're talking about. Most Shi'a Muslims don't even wear the hijab let alone the niqab or burqa. It's an affectation of Sunni only, and comes from the need for men to control their women. I'm sure you mean well, but you really need to understand what you're talking about before just blindly defending anything that challenges your liberal sensibilities.

 

 

You do sound rude and also offensive and condescending. You speak about being grateful people are not shutting your right wing comments down as a racist, but are quick to dismiss a person as a liberal; sounds rather hypocritical. You also sound as if you have a axe to grind on the religion issue.

 

 

I don't profess to be an expert - unlike you who claim to be an expert on every town in the UK and it's demographics.

 

 

My husband's aunt lives in Iran and is a Shia Muslim and has experienced huge issues because of the subjugation of women she experienced there. Control of women is cultural, and not solely religious and crosses many borders. I worked with a Jehovah's Witness from Bangladesh who wore a headscarf. I regularly discussed religion with a (male) Sunni co worker who was a really nice, gentle guy - his wife wore western clothing. My understanding (limited though it is) is that there are different sub sects even within the major sects of Islam, and that an individual's Imam can have a big influence.

 

 

Or to be plain, I prefer, personally to look at the individual I meet, rather than making big judgements about 'groups'.

[estellyn]

personally I don't think there is any place for any religion in the 21st century,all religion seems to be a giant step backwards,surely as these people that have immigrated here to the uk get a decent education they will see religion for what it is,fairy tales, and probably there will be more harmony in our society,there does seem to be a lot of religious teachers coming to this country bringing their point of view from where they come from and filling the heads of the young here with it,maybe that should be discouraged .

 

 

Although the world might be better, I think people tend to always find something to fight about. I think it will be a long time before we've all evolved to live peacefully. I don't think you can prevent people having religious beliefs - some people need a way to explain the world around them and get scared and unfilled if they think it's all just evolution and chance with no guiding 'presence'. Even if I don't believe, I don't feel it's for me to try and take away the comfort their religion brings to them. But yes, my husband also calls it 'fairy tales'.

[estellyn]

Yawn. Sorry if I threatened you. Yes I'm sure everything you say is wonderful.... Carry on...

 

 

methinks I fed a troll....

[estellyn]

If it makes you more comfortable to believe that rather than analyse reality, then fair enough. x

 

 

You live in your reality, I'll live in mine, and let's leave it at that.