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    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.


      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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How to defend myself against a claim

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Background. My Mum was being cared for by a local authority using contracted out care. The copany did not always turn up on time, stay the required time, or even turn up at all on many occasions. To compund the problem they falsified records to suggest they had.

I complained but nothing was done to resolve the problems.

I stopped paying the care bills to make them take notice. They didn't notice until I pointed it out.

Mum passed away and I was the executor of her estate.

Mum's bills consist of many elements of care, only one part (the subcontract part) which I have an issue with. I want to pay the rest and discuss/negotiate the bad element. The local auithority refuse to separate out the bills saying I owe all the bill. I have offered several times to pay the parts and discuss the rest.

I'm being taken to court, the Chancery Division no less, for the whole bill, ~£5k.

I have applied to defend the claim and have now got papers suggesting that it wil be fast-tracked.

I'm not sure what my next step should be, any help gratefully received.


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I'm mystified why their solicitors issued the claim in the High Court in London. Its been awhile since I've had to look at the detailed rules surrounding this stuff but generally speaking a case has to be worth at least 50k to be heard in High Court.



Is there some other aspect to this, e.g. a mortgage or property dispute?


Was there a contract between your mum and the local authority? If so what does it say?




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Mum's bills consist of many elements of care, only one part (the subcontract

part) which I have an issue with

Is the claim against you personally? The claim should be against your mother's estate. Yes you need to deal with them as executor but you cannot be held personally liable.

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The claim is against me personally as I was the executor of Mum's estate. Mum's estate consisted almost entirely of her property which was sold and then the value dispersed according to her will.

Mum did not have a 'contract' as such with the local authority (LA). They were providing assorted care services for her. Mum was regularly in and out of hospital. For a while her care was provided by the LA personnel directly. But when she had a stay in the hospital once of over 2 weeks this effectively cancelled this care package and so a new one was set up when she came out of hospital. This was provided this time by a subcontract company to the LA. This is when the problems started. Mum's care package consisted of a number of elements. 1. Home Care, ie a care visitor turning up for a specified amount of time to do specific duties. 2. Family based care, a visitor turning up once a week for a chat. 3. Telecare. A system that had a smoke alarm and a pendant button linked to the telephone for emergency use. 4. Respite care. Residential care stays when Mum had been in hospital or similar. The ONLY part of the care package that was a problem was the Home Care. The team were late, lazy, short time visits, no visits at all. They falsified records to suggest they had visited according to the schedule. Because of the repeated problems and the lack of interest in resolving them by the LA I stopped paying the bills. I had control of Mum's finances via a Power of Attorney document. The LA did not notice until I, out of frustration, pointed it out to them, approx. 8 months after stopping. It took another 6 months to get a meeting together to discuss this. At this point the LA just 'ran away' and stopped providing home care. they then delegated a budget of £0 to me to find my own. I did and it ran successfully until Mum's eventual death.

The claim is for the whole amount of the cost due to ALL the elements of the care. I have offered to pay ALL of the parts that are not disputed and then discuss or arbitrate over the remainder. The LA have refused saying they cannot split the bill down. Its all or nothing. Therefore I have not paid.

They also say that the whole bill is due anyway as Mum would only have been paying a 'contribution' to her care costs and not the whole amount. My point is that she didn't get the whole care package due to poor service from the subcontract care team so why should she pay the total bill. The service promised was not delivered.

When Mum passed away I applied for probate so I could sort out the estate. The LA placed a Caveat against the estate which prevented the probate grant. I applied for a Warning against that and the LA withdrew their caveat before it got to probate court.

I have repeatedly asked for a bill breakdown so I can pay the parts of the bill which are not disputed.

The LA have repeatedly refused saying its a whole bill.

The amount was initially over £7,000 but is now a little over £5,000 as one part was separated out and has now been paid.

I do not understand the legal process enough to understand why I've been put through the High Court route and not the small claims etc.

It is via the 'Chancery Division' of the High Court of Justice in Chester. The LA is Cheshire West & Chester.

I live down in Staffordshire.

I have submitted a defence stating that I dispute the amount, not that I dispute the whole claim. I have also stated that I wish to pay the undisputed elements but am being prevented from doing so.

I have asked for arbitration and a discussion in the form of a pre-action protocol from the LA but they have refused. They recon a Pre Action Protocol is not appropriate.

The court has written back to me following my defence submission suggesting the fast track. But as I say, this is all foreign to me.

Any quality advice and help accepted please.

Happy to answer more questions if needed.

Sorry this is a bit wordy!

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How much is the amount of the claim then? If less than 10k you need to be pushing for small claims track. This would be much better for you than fast track, as it greatly reduces the risk of having to pay the LA's legal costs.


I am a bit mystified as to the legal basis for all of this. You say there was no contract, but surely there must have been some sort of documentation in place in relation to the home care arrangements. These kind of three party arrangements, where the LA contracts a sub-contractor to provide services to you, but the contractor fails in its duty, can be a bit complicated and difficult to advise on without being able to sit down and read through all of the documents.


Can you post up the Particulars of Claim, word-for-word if you are comfortable doing this on a public forum? Or at least give a clear summary of the POC?




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