Suspect I have no loan agrrement

[maybelline]

Hi campari2, I think the gist of it is that you can try to claim for all you have paid and this might be a bit hit and miss but that you can claim for the any interest and possibly the actual payments from the date they defaulted you but nothing piror to the default - hope this makes sense

[daipp]

In a similar vein, last September my wife applied for a loan of £2000.00 from Cahoot. They sent the papers out for this and my signed and returned them. After a few days my wife phoned Cahoot to check if they had received the papers. At the time they said that they hadn't.

The agent she spoke to said that she could have received a loan up to the value of £8000.00 if she had preferred

 

My wife said that it would have been preferable in hindsight, if she had applied for £3000.00. The agent said "No problem, I'll send a new agreement" to which my wife agreed.

 

After a few days the new agreement did not arrive so my wife phoned back and spoke to the same agent. He told her not to worry and he would put the money into her account straight away :eek:

 

He told her that if she has any queries over this issue then she should phone and ask to speak to him only.

 

The money appeared in the account the same day.

 

There is NO WAY WHATSOEVER that Cahoot have a signed agreement for this loan and my wife has been merrily paying it back since.

 

As Cahoot have been extremely difficult to date with charges on my accounts I know what I would do.

 

My wife however, does not want to get the agent in trouble.

 

What would you do ????

 

David

[Acerfan]

I don't know if this is helpful to you daipp, but when I worked for a loan company (very, very briefly - they didn't keep me on cos I wouldn't do the hard sell & I hated the job anyway) there was a loan underwriter who forged a signature to get his bonus. He was only caught cos he was bragging about it!!! I'm sure it's happened elsewhere as well, but if it were me, I'd consider why the agent did it & what he might have got for it. Chances are he got a nice commission, and most likely he's not working there anymore - the turnover is generally pretty quick. I'd send off a CCA request & see what they come up with.

I hope this helps

[maybelline]

my opinion only but dont companies have a responsibility to train their staff properly and surely any member of staff doing this is unlikely to be acting independently but rather with the full knowledge of supervisors, this may sound rather sceptical but the company is responsible.

[daipp]

I don't know if this is helpful to you daipp, but when I worked for a loan company (very, very briefly - they didn't keep me on cos I wouldn't do the hard sell & I hated the job anyway) there was a loan underwriter who forged a signature to get his bonus. He was only caught cos he was bragging about it!!! I'm sure it's happened elsewhere as well, but if it were me, I'd consider why the agent did it & what he might have got for it. Chances are he got a nice commission, and most likely he's not working there anymore - the turnover is generally pretty quick. I'd send off a CCA request & see what they come up with.

I hope this helps

 

my opinion only but dont companies have a responsibility to train their staff properly and surely any member of staff doing this is unlikely to be acting independently but rather with the full knowledge of supervisors, this may sound rather sceptical but the company is responsible.

 

Thanks for the prompt replies.

 

Only one thought; what if they have forged my wifes signature.:o

 

David

[Acerfan]

Hi again daipp,

Sorry, I didn't mean to worry you with my annecdote. I'm sure it doesn't happen very often, I just wanted to highlight that they can be very lax with the rules when it comes to making a 'sale'. I would send off a CCA request & if/when they don't comply, you know they've got nothing and the loan will be unenforceable. As long as you know your wife never signed anything (not even a modifying agreement), then you know there's no agreement to enforce. Did you ever get a copy of the first agreement? If you did, is it the same account number?

[daipp]

Hi again daipp,

Sorry, I didn't mean to worry you with my annecdote. I'm sure it doesn't happen very often, I just wanted to highlight that they can be very lax with the rules when it comes to making a 'sale'. I would send off a CCA request & if/when they don't comply, you know they've got nothing and the loan will be unenforceable. As long as you know your wife never signed anything (not even a modifying agreement), then you know there's no agreement to enforce. Did you ever get a copy of the first agreement? If you did, is it the same account number?

 

No doubt about it whatsoever, my wife NEVER signed anything whatsoever for the £3000.00 loan.

 

David

[Acerfan]

Then I'd get her to send off a CCA request. I can post up the template letter if you need it. There's also A LOT of useful info on CCA requests on these threads: Loan Company Cannot Supply The Original Agreement and Consumer Credit Act Agreements

I hope this helps

[daipp]

Then I'd get her to send off a CCA request. I can post up the template letter if you need it. There's also A LOT of useful info on CCA requests on these threads: Loan Company Cannot Supply The Original Agreement and Consumer Credit Act Agreements

I hope this helps

 

If you could post it please that would be great !!

 

Many thanks

 

David

[Acerfan]

Hi daipp,

Here's the template:

 

[your address]

 

[bank’s address]

 

[Date]

 

Statutory Request under Section 77 or 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Account Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Please provide a true copy of the original signed agreement setting up the above numbered account. Also include true copies of any and all documents referred to in the original agreement.

 

Please also provide (as allowed by the Act) a signed statement showing:

 

a) The state of the account

 

b) The total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due.

 

c) The total sum which is to become payable under the agreement, the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due.

 

I have included the statutory fee of £1 and you have 12 working days from the date of receipt of this letter to provide me with the information requested.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

[your name]

 

As it's a fixed-sum credit agreement eg a loan, your request will be under section 77, if it were a running-account credit agreement, eg credit card or store card it'd be a section 78 request.

 

If they haven't complied within 14 working days (2 for delivery + the 12 statutory days), they're in default and you can withold payment as they cannot enforce the agreement without a court order. If they still haven't complied after a further calender month, then they've committed an offence.

[Smoothy]

Dont forget a nice big 14pt Bold heading

 

I do not acknowledge any debt to your company

[daipp]

Thanks for your help everyone.

 

Letter constructed and will be posted tomorrow.

 

David

[daipp]

Letter posted !!

 

David

[daipp]

Just a quick update

 

Letter posted on 01-May-07 and according to Royal Mail website, was received by them on 04-May-07.

 

Therefore, come the 16-May-07, I can move forward. As I know there is no agreement, I'm interested to learn what they'll say.

 

David

[daipp]

Just a quick update

 

Letter posted on 01-May-07 and according to Royal Mail website, was received by them on 04-May-07.

 

Therefore, come the 16-May-07, I can move forward. As I know there is no agreement, I'm interested to learn what they'll say.

 

David

 

At the moment, Cahoot still haven't replied. Am i correct in thinking I now have to wait until the middle of June (for the extra one month) or is there another letter we should be firing off to Cahoot?

 

David

[Acerfan]

Hi daipp,

it's 12 working days once it's been delivered, so I've worked it out at 23rd May (allowing for the bank holiday) as the date they defaulted. After a further calender month (23rd June), if they still haven't complied, they have committed an offence.

 

You have a few options. As they are currently in default, you are within your rights to withhold payment as they are not legally able to enforce the agreement. Section 77 (4) of the CCA 1974 says:

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

If they know the legal implications, they should not default you, but if I were you & decided to withhold payment, I would write to them & state that you're withholding payment due to their non-compliance and the fact that they've defaulted & quote the CCA 1974 as above.

 

However, if you do this, they are more likely to get their act together & (if they have it) send the agreement. Personally, I think it is more effective, and makes you seem more reasonable if you wait until they have committed an offence as you will then have given them more than enough time to comply. You will also then have the satisfaction of telling them they've committed an offence

 

In the meantime, there's plenty to read on the subject. If you haven't already, have a good look at the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - you can find it on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

and also the two main threads on CCA requests I mentioned before. There's a lot of useful information there.

 

If you need any more info or help. feel free to ask here or PM me

[joneshousehold]

Morning Acer, how's it going? Still no agreement?

[Acerfan]

Hi jonesy,

They did send the copy, but not the cancellation rights & I don't think they ever sent the copy & cancellation rights at the beginning as per s 63 and 64. Unless 2 copy statements with no covering letter constitute compliance with a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), they've only got a few days to comply with this before they're in more trouble.

 

This was another debacle - original sent March, returned stating they needed account number etc (which I'd put on letter) & that they only charge £5. So I returned it in April with info highlighted & a £5 cheque. A few days later, I received the 2 statements, & last week I received 2 identical letters saying my request had been passed on, it was free, and if I was requesting information in relation to charges I'd be sent copies of my statements. Funnily enough, I'd love it if they didn't comply - just another nail in the coffin.

 

They've also defaulted me on all of my accounts, adding horrendous charges and taking me further into the red. However, it seems they've only just got around to my letter from April in response to their notice of default letters, so perhaps things will change...

 

To be honest though, I'm not quite sure where to go from here. If I don't get a positive response from their next letter, would you mind if I emailed you for some more of your great advice & to bounce some ideas off you?

 

Cheers,

Acer

 

PS, sorry I didn't pick this up earlier, I was busy kicking my laptop around the room - stupid brick!!!

[daipp]

Hi daipp,

it's 12 working days once it's been delivered, so I've worked it out at 23rd May (allowing for the bank holiday) as the date they defaulted. After a further calender month (23rd June), if they still haven't complied, they have committed an offence.

 

You have a few options. As they are currently in default, you are within your rights to withhold payment as they are not legally able to enforce the agreement. Section 77 (4) of the CCA 1974 says:

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

If they know the legal implications, they should not default you, but if I were you & decided to withhold payment, I would write to them & state that you're withholding payment due to their non-compliance and the fact that they've defaulted & quote the CCA 1974 as above.

 

However, if you do this, they are more likely to get their act together & (if they have it) send the agreement. Personally, I think it is more effective, and makes you seem more reasonable if you wait until they have committed an offence as you will then have given them more than enough time to comply. You will also then have the satisfaction of telling them they've committed an offence

 

In the meantime, there's plenty to read on the subject. If you haven't already, have a good look at the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - you can find it on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

and also the two main threads on CCA requests I mentioned before. There's a lot of useful information there.

 

If you need any more info or help. feel free to ask here or PM me

 

Just a thought

 

The loan my wife has is a type of rolling acount where she can if she wishes continue taking amounts out of the loan, make a payment, then take more money out etc.

 

If this is the case, should I be refering to Section 78 of the CCA 1974 ??

 

What do you think??

 

David

[Acerfan]

Off the top of my head, I'd say it was therefore a running-account credit agreement, (see section 10 of the CCA 1974) and the request should be made under s 78. Did you state just section 77 request on your letter or both section?

[daipp]

Off the top of my head, I'd say it was therefore a running-account credit agreement, (see section 10 of the CCA 1974) and the request should be made under s 78. Did you state just section 77 request on your letter or both section?

 

The second paragraph of my letter said........

 

"I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of the credit agreement on request. I enclose a payment of £1.00 by Postal Order, which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act."

 

Hopefully, that should cover it.

 

David

[Acerfan]

Sounds like you've definitely got it covered then. However, I would read through the CCA to check if there's anything specific mentioned about this type of agreement.

[daipp]

Sounds like you've definitely got it covered then. However, I would read through the CCA to check if there's anything specific mentioned about this type of agreement.

 

Will do !!

 

Once again, many thanks for your help and assistance in this matter.

 

David

[maybelline]

I have posted this on hfc thread but am still having huge problems with hfc and defaults, three altogether on account of one agreement they are chasing but the agreeement they keep sending is not the agreement number they state is owed, none of the dca's have a copy of the agreement either but have placed defaults on file. have sent all the in breach letters and they still refuse to remove defaults.

 

I cannot make out what their latest letter means, Capquest defaulted me in 2003. the agreement copy they have is stamped RECEIVED nov 06, the encl letter from hfc states 'we are writing to inform you that by agreement XXXXX2001 hfc sold and assigned all of its rights....to the above agreement..to Capqeust on XXXX2004.

 

so did they have the agreement in 2001 or 2004 or 2006???

[noomill060]

You can complain to the Information Commissioners Office to get the defaults removed.

 

 

If there is no Credit Agreement they do not have any right to pass you data in to third persons. ie: credit reference agencies.

 

You can complien to Trading Standards over their failure to comply with you s.78 request.

 

You can stop paying them while and as long as they are in default