Suspect I have no loan agrrement

[Acerfan]

Hi,

I took out a loan last year but at the last moment had computer failure so requested a larger loan to cover the cost of replacement. They agreed & cancelled the original loan (account closed - I have evidence) and set up a new loan account. But I don't think I signed a new agreement! I have written to bank manager to request copy of agreement on 6/10 & got no reply (I never received one when loan set up or 6 months ago when I requested one over phone & no mention of £1.00 statutory fee).

 

Have written again & will post tomorrow, but should I enclose £1.00? Surely, I'm not requesting a copy, but my original agreement, so shouldn't have to pay. Will pay of course if they won't comply, (and if I do can I send a cheque) just to be sure I haven't got agreement & if not claim refund for repayments & wipe loan.

 

Had so many problems with this bank in 1 year (all their mistakes eg paying money into my account by mistake) it's unbelievable...

[jannercobbler]

you should send them a Consumer Credit Agreement request and include the £1 fee as a cheque then they have to comply, The CCA must return a true signed copy of any agreement, NOT an application form. Thye have 12 working days to respond to it.

 

HTH

 

Paul

[Acerfan]

Sent off CCA Request today - 27/10/06

 

Let see what they come up with!

[Acerfan]

Received Pre-Contract information last week - no signatures & no signature boxes either and no statement that it's an agreement. It was an original, cos it was filled in in biro, but who's to say they didn't fill it in & send it out when they got my request? Just waiting while clock ticks down now. They've got till 20/11 + 1 calender month to get full agreement to me.

However, missed call from them the other day & they said they'd ring back on Saturday. So I'll see what they've got to say (if it's about this) & get them to confirm in writing.

[Acerfan]

Hi all,

Just received copy of credit file from equifax (got experian one online) & there's no record of the loan with either company, only a search by this bank when I applied for a CC & another when I applied for a Current Account. Just wondering whether there are any other credit reference agencies other than these two. I was only checking to see if I need to get any defaults removed on my other accounts, but miraculously, apart from my CC, it all seems pretty good to me!!! Does anyone know anything about these credit reference agencies? Surely, if you've got a loan agreement, the loan will appear on your credit file?

 

Any advice gratefully received

 

Oh yes, they never rang me back...

[Acerfan]

Just to update - sent follow-up letter stating I wanted true signed copy complying to Section 61 of CCA 1974 within the timescale. Received answerphone message from bank on 30th day & call day after saying they needed the original for their records but would send me a copy that would be stamped as a 'certified true copy'.

That was over 2 weeks ago & still nothing. Surely, even with Christmas postage it would have come by now? Anyway, they've not complied within the timeframe and are now guilty of committing a criminal offence

[Guest NATTIE]

I have a quick question and it is out of curiosity- what are you looking to do? ie if the loan agreement is not signed? I am curious to understand the logic behind it. Are you clarifying whether you have a loan? Which loan you have?

[Isiris]

At a guess, I would imagine the OP will say no CCA, no debt

[Acerfan]

Originally I was unhappy about the way the bank had handled payments etc & the amount of errors they'd made. However, if I could get the debt wiped or at least the interest repaid that would be a great help.

 

Just to update:

 

Have still received no agreement through post. However, received call from Customer Services on Monday saying they'd received my letter & was it a good time to talk - I said I wasn't happy to discuss over the phone & could they put it in writing? Received letter yesterday saying I couldn't have the original cos the bank needed it for their own records (duh, that's not what I was asking for!) & I should visit the branch to collect a certified copy of the original. When I spoke to the same woman on 21st December, she said I could collect from the branch or she could post it. I asked her to post it to me, which she obviously didn't. I'm not quite sure if they're playing dumb or if they actually are stupid.

 

I'm going to visit the branch today but am wary of being drawn into talking about it. Will try to get some recording equipment ready just in case!!!

[noomill060]

Hang on- if its in excess of 12 working days since you requested a true copy of you agreement, the agreement is now unenforceable, unless the creditor applies for for and is granted permission to enforce it by a court.

 

If 30 have passed since the 12 working day deadline they are in criminal breach of the CCA!

 

The debt is as good as dead.

[noomill060]

I see you wrote that you quoted S61 of the CCA. The request must be made under s77/78.

[Acerfan]

Hi noomill,

I decided not to go to the branch yesterday (was short of time anyway) & wanted some time to think about it. I wrote originally under s 77/78 and wrote a follow up letter specifying it also had to conform with s61 as they's sent me pre-contract information. I don't want to rush into anything on this one as it's a large debt (for me anyway) & it would make a huge difference to not have to make the monthly payments. However, as their agreements don't even have a signature box & I'm 99% sure I never signed anything, it would be good to have confirmation from them.

 

Am just a bit worried they actually do have it & if I go into the branch they'll say I've got to make a payment straight away. Can they do this even if they've not complied within the timescale?

[Smoothy]

You need to stick to the time limits set. If they provide you a copy of your agreement then take it from there but if they fail to supply it after the time allowed has elapsed, I suggest you start here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/10900-loan-company-cannot-supply.html

 

If you rush, you may shoot yourself in the foot! Tis better to take your time and be seen to be conforming to the timescales laid down.

 

Smoothy

[Fullyskinted]

I think its about time you put ya foot down and contacted them to say you were reporting them to the relevant authorities (OFT and TSO If I Recall corectly)

If they had more than 44 working days since you sent it (2 + 12 + 30) then they are WELL out of time.

Im in a similar situation myself.

They have written to me stating that they cannot find the original copy in theor archives! Like you, Im a little nervous as to a way forward as its a substantial amount. And this is on a CC, so Im still not 100% of the process and if its the same as a loan agreement...

 

Good luck with yours.

[ADDABET]

Ditto,

 

I to am in the same boat, the 30 days has elapsed so am just waiting for Goldfish's (my CC) next move:D .

If its any help from what iv'e read on other threads i'd say the process for loan agreements is the same as credit cards:wink:

[Smoothy]

Ditto,

 

I to am in the same boat, the 30 days has elapsed so am just waiting for Goldfish's (my CC) next move:D .

If its any help from what iv'e read on other threads i'd say the process for loan agreements is the same as credit cards:wink:

 

To a degree..

The big debate is, no agreement, no debt.

By not supplying the agreement, they only render terms under that unenforceable, the debt still remains.

Realistically, if they cannot supply an agreement, they cannot enforce it without permission from a court. As I understand it, failure to comply with a CCA request carries a maximum fine of £2500. So if you have a debt of say £500 it may not be in their intrests to persue recovery of the debt unless of course they can provide an adequate reason to the court and have all the relevant documentation to prove the debt exsists.

 

But...if the debt is a biggy....say £20,000 and they fail to comply with your request, they may persue the debt despite the fact that they may get a slap on the wrists, as long as they can prove the exsistence of the debt such as account details.

 

A lot of factors need to be taken into consideration like the amount, who the judge is, who the creditor is etc etc..

 

Im not trying to put you off (god forbid!) but if you are aware of what could happen, you can mentally prepare yourself for whatever lies ahead.

 

Smoothy

[un1boy]

The penalty vould be imprisonment too!

 

Acerfan, they are in criminal default - you now have no legal obligation to pay them without a court order.

 

Don't go to the branch, write to them advising they have committed an offence and you are no longer making payments against it.

 

If they cannot provide the agreement at all then the debt doesn't exist...if they do have it, but haven't provided the terms or something then as Smoothy says it just becomes unenforcable, altho the debt still remains.

 

Write to them Acerfan, don't go to the branch - they ahve commited a criminal offence mate!

[Mike220359]

Hi noomill,

I decided not to go to the branch yesterday (was short of time anyway) & wanted some time to think about it. I wrote originally under s 77/78 and wrote a follow up letter specifying it also had to conform with s61 as they's sent me pre-contract information. I don't want to rush into anything on this one as it's a large debt (for me anyway) & it would make a huge difference to not have to make the monthly payments. However, as their agreements don't even have a signature box & I'm 99% sure I never signed anything, it would be good to have confirmation from them.

 

Am just a bit worried they actually do have it & if I go into the branch they'll say I've got to make a payment straight away. Can they do this even if they've not complied within the timescale?

 

They can try, but just say no.

 

Unfortunatly in my experience branch workers and those over the 'phone have no intimate experience of the cca act. All they see is that you owe money.

 

Personally speaking I wouldn't even go to the bank. If they are outside the statutory timescales, stop payment and let them come to you. There's nothing they can do to you, although they will say there is.

 

The excellent ammo that you have got is that you have some memory of the founding events. In my exoperience this is very useful, because if you offer your protagonist an actual marker that they have to counter they're immediatly on the back foot.

 

Be strong, they're wrong

 

Mike

[m55dlc]

Just subscribing to the thread ... v interesting

[Peterbard]

HI Just skimmed the thread

Think I may have missed something .

When you took on the second loan surely the repayments,interest etc would have changed did they not give you any documenation of this before issueing the loan?

 

Peter

[Guest NATTIE]

I was doing the same Peter, but I was thinking that if they had the agreement they might want to use something as modern as a Photocopy and supply a copy of the agreement and keep the original one. Seems fair to me unless they have no photocopier.

[Acerfan]

Hi,

When I asked for a bigger loan, they said they'd sort it out & then told me it'd been agreed. Like I said before, I'm almost 100% certain I didn't go back to the branch to sign anything. To be honest, when I sorted out first loan, he admitted he'd never done one before!!! He even came to my work to get me to sign first form (actually don't think I signed form on first loan cos my copy doesn't have my sig on it) - think he might have been in for a bonus for selling it. That loan account was then closed.

 

I didn't get any info on new loan except verbally that it would have deferment period & rough idea (can't remember if they gave me exact figure) of monthly payments. The pre-contract information I received in response to my CCA request is what I think I should have been given with the agreement as it's exactly the same as the form I have with 1st loan agreement.

[Peterbard]

Seems fair to me unless they have no photocopier.

 

Perhaps it was the Nat West they are making cut backs.

[Mike220359]

I was doing the same Peter, but I was thinking that if they had the agreement they might want to use something as modern as a Photocopy and supply a copy of the agreement and keep the original one. Seems fair to me unless they have no photocopier.

 

:grin:

[Acerfan]

I'll keep you guessing which bank it is :grin: Hee hee!

 

Cheers for all the help & advise guys, will definitely not be going into the branch!!!