Black Horse - can I still claim...

[jo5ephedward5]

Hi guys,

Quick question regarding PPI.

I used to have car finance with Black Horse [paid off in May 2010]…well actually it was a Personal Loan but they linked a car I brought to the HPI register and mistreated the agreement as hire purchase but that’s another story.

Basically the usual story, Carland where the car was purchased told me it would improve my chances of getting a loan if I took out the PPI – I said no I didn’t want it and a couple of years into paying the loan I discovered part of the payment was PPI which was lumped into the loan and the interest was added to this too. - this helped make a £4500 loan cost 10k to pay back!

I called Black Horse and asked for a refund then – this was well before the recent PPI claims being in the news I just knew I was in the right.

 

Black Horse said they would stop the PPI from then and recalculate my monthly payments – about 10 months passed and they still hadn’t so I complained again and said I wanted it stopping and a refund for all of it – they noted I had called previously so they would reduce my payments by the £24 odd that was PPI and sent me a cheque for around £500 for the PPI I’d paid in since I first complained.

They refused to give me a refund or the interest back on the payments made prior to me contacting them.

My simple question is can I now reclaim this – I formally disputed this at the time and I never accepted that I’d agreed to PPI payments – it was miss-sold from the off.

If I'm ‘allowed’ to reclaim after accepting a previous refund [albeit only what they’d continued to take after they’d allegedly stopped my PPI].

If so I’ll get a SAR off to Black Horse and fill in the relevant paperwork.

 

 

 

 

Dates and figures are approx. but I think I still have digital copies of letters I sent to them so I can probably firm up and lose details if they are deemed relevant and this stage.

[ims21]

What I would do is work out the amount you should have got back by using this spreadsheet with the "Claim To" date set to the date that you got the previous refund. That will tell you whether the amount they gave you is close to the amount you should have received.

 

If it isn't then contact them and tell them that they have not refunded the correct amount and you require the balance to be paid to you.

 

From what you say it seems that they had pretty much agreed that this was mis-sold.

 

 

StatIntSheet v101.xls

[jo5ephedward5]

Thanks,

 

I'll send a SAR to Black Horse and see what I can fill in to the form.

 

I know they only paid me back the 10 or so months worth of PPI that I paid after asking them to cancel it...the first 2 years or so were never returned and the APR was something like 22% so it obviously adds up, especially as Black Horse pre-load their interest at the beginning.

[jo5ephedward5]

Well Black Horse are efficient – they received my SAR on Nov 5th and I already have the info!

So I’ve had a look through and I took out the loan on the 2nd Feb 2005.

On the 10th October 2006 I noticed when I was having a finical spring clean that there was PPI on the account which I didn’t recall asking for in fact I’m sure I made a point of saying no.

I wrote to Black Horse and said I wanted to cancel it, as I believed it was miss sold. Then they replied and said my monthly payments would be reduced from £150,68 to £135.99 once they received a copy of the signed cancelation form which I duly returned – then I forgot about it assume all was done and dusted.

In November 2008 I noticed that these payments had not reduced and so called Black Horse and asked why – they claimed never to have received my cancelation form and sent another one – I argued that I wanted a refund of the overpayment and the interest [as black horse front-load it], they said they’d sent me the 2 years of over payments to my bank and recalculate the interest and knock it off my loan which would result in the reduced monthly payments. [of 132.64 so slightly less than quoted 2 years earlier]

Eventually this all happened but the fact remains that for the first 20months of this loan I was paying PPI without realising and I’d like it back.

I’d disputed this long before the government stepped in so what I’m asking is, am I likely to be able to claim this back?

To my reckoning there is 20 payments a-miss somewhere from the start of the policy.

I have the agreement, which says the PPI was £1065.53, which was added to my loan [APR was 19.9] with a total payable over 60 months of £1569 for the PPI [if it had run to completion].

I’ve had a look at the PPI calculator and I can see its straight forward, but whats not straight forward is if the PPI had a knock on affect on the total interest I’ve paid on that loan as it was lumped in with the main loan and not an interest free separate insurance?

 

I think I'm confusing myself :S

 

J

[ims21]

Hi

 

Have a read of No.1 in my signature....all the detail on how to work this out is in there.

 

If you get stuck, shout here and I'll help you with the figures and spreadsheet.

[southeasternwoman]

I had two loans in the past with Black Horse (Finance as they were back then).

 

One day I received a letter advising they were not upholding my complaint because they had not received the paperwork they requested from me, by a date I can't remember. However, that letter pre-dated the phonecall I had with them which is when they requested the paperwork i.e. the woman had already drafted and posted that letter before she's spoken to me! Anyway, when I emailed their CEO with this information, he was good enough to respond and acknowledge they'd screwed up.

 

I received a phonecall from someone else going over the details of my claim and what I had confirmed in the paperwork. I was told they would be in touch in writing with their decision.

 

A couple of days later, I received a letter from the same woman who had written to me previously to tell me my complaint wasn't being upheld, to advise that although my claim pre-dated regulation (which meant my complaint fell outside of the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service), Black Horse had reviewed my complaint again, were upholding it and would issue a cheque totalling £4,147.54 to cover payments I'd made plus any interest that had accrued on the amount. The cheque arrived about three weeks later.

 

It's hard, but keep going. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

[jo5ephedward5]

Well it sounds like its worth the pursuit then!

 

I'll spend some time this week trying to get my head around it all and keep you posted.

 

Thanks guys.

[southeasternwoman]

It definitely is worth it. Don't let them confuse you and if you send anything by post, send it via first class recorded delivery. Stick to the facts and keep any emotion out of your communication with them.

 

It sounds stupid, but there have been so many times I have had to take a step back from what I am doing. In some cases, where they've really wound me up, I do nothing for a couple of days then go back to it.

 

Best of luck.

[jo5ephedward5]

OK, I’ve finally gotten around to dealing with this!

 

I have reviewed the information I received from my SAR and ‘think’ this is right:

 

I took out a loan for £5049.00 and PPI was included at an additional cost of £1068.53

 

Both were lumped together to make a total figure and were subjected to 19.9% APR.

 

I think I’m right in saying £1068.53 is 17.41% of the total loan value £61173.53 so every month 17.1% of my payment was the PPI and its associated interest?

 

I paid 150.68 per month which means £26.23 was allocated to the PPI?

 

So using the calculator and the exact dates my payments were paid for the 2 years prior to me cancelling it I’m owed a refund with interest of £951.88.

 

Is there anything I’ve missed?

 

I’ve filled in the claim form on Black Horses website however I need to put a reason that this insurance was ‘miss-sold’.

 

Looking through my SAR originally when I cancelled I’d said it was miss sold as I didn’t think I’d agreed to it and they just sent me back a copy of my signed agreement for it – but having now racked my brain I recall the salesman telling me I’d have a much better chance of having my loan approved if I opted for the insurance…

 

I’m not sure who to word this part of the claim?

 

Sorry for all the questions – I’m normally good with these things!

[ims21]

Loan of £5049, PPI of £1068.53 makes a total of £6117.53. PPI is therefore 17.47% of the total.

 

If you have filled in the spreadsheet correctly then it will be ok.

 

Only you will know why it was mis-sold and just put your reasons in your own words.

[jo5ephedward5]

Well I just posted it off so fingers crossed.

 

Thanks

[jo5ephedward5]

Well further to my last post Black Horse have already responded and refused my claim.

 

I stated the following reasons for my claim:

 

 

• The policy was not fully explained to me.
  

 

• The total cost of adding PPI to my loan was not clearly explained to me, i.e. there was no option to pay for the policy upfront, it was added to my total loan value.
  
• It was alluded to me that it would be extremely difficult to be excepted for a loan should I not take out PPI with my loan.
  
• Despite attempting to pressure me into taking out the cover, I thought I had declined it; yet in 2006 when looking through the contract, I discover I had been paying towards PPI. I cancelled it accordingly [although as I had declined it was not explained to me that I could cancel the policy].
  
• The loan contract says below the ‘details of supplier’ to refer to clause 7 for the Terms and Conditions of the PPI – Clause 7 refers to ‘Early Settlement’ of the Loan and makes no reference to PPI.
  
• Clause 6 states that the PPI cover is only taken out if the ‘yes box’ in the payment protection plan section is ticked – there is not box to tick, let alone one with a tick in it.
  

This was their response:

 

Thank you for your recent letter regarding the sale of PPI in relation to the above account.

 

It is important that we are made aware if any instances where our customers feel that insurance has been miss-sold, however, our records show that we did not sell the PPI for this agreement. The insurance was sold by Carland (ref CA) at the point of sale.

 

Unfortunately, Carland is no longer trading so we are unable to refer this matter to them for a response but we have reviewed the information available to us. I have enclosed a copy of the signed agreement. This clearly states that the cost of the policy and the level of cover being provided. It also confirms that the policy was optional.

 

Further, the full policy terms and conditions were sent out when you accepted the agreement.. This confirmed eligibility and exclusions for the policy and that if the customer was not entirely satisfied with the level of cover being provided, it could be cancelled in full without cost by writing to us within 30 days of the date of the agreement. Having checked our records we did not receive such a request in relation to this agreement.

 

On this basis, we are unable to find any evidence that the policy was mis-sold by Carland. If you are able to provide any evidence that the policy was mis-sold, please send it to us at the above address and we will investigate further.

 

I trust this explains our position.

 

Vicky Watts [pp]

 

for teh record, they didn't inc. a copy of the agreement as she suggests - I have one but that's not the point

Edited February 20, 2013 by jo5ephedward5
formatting!

[jo5ephedward5]

Well in an interesting twist, following yesterdays letter I received this one, dated a day later:

“Thank you for contacting us about your complaint. I am sorry this situation has occurred and I appreciate you taking the time to bring this to my attention.

My understanding of your complain is that you are concerned about the way that you were sold Payment Protection Insurance on your Black Horse loan. We are now gathering information and documentation relevant to your complaint.

We will respond to your complaint as soon as possible, and in any event within eight weeks from the date we received your complaint. This is in line with specific requirements that the FSA has published for the handling of PPI complaints. You can find full details of the FSA’a requirements on their website shown below:”

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/2011/049.shtml

it then goes on to say they have included their complaints procedure leaflet and that they will deal with this as quick as possible.

Its also signed by Vicky Watts - this time signed in her own ink not pp’s

I’m not sure what to do, the first letter dated the 14th seemed to be a tailored response say no chance but with this new one dated the 15th has suggested they’re looking into it I might just give them the 8 weeks to look into it…obviously they might not be looking into it but time will tell.

[jo5ephedward5]

well the 8 weeks has just passed and not a peep out of black horse

[ims21]

You now need to write to them and tell them of their failure and that if you do not receive a response in 7 days you will be opening a complaint with fos which will cost them a further £850 case fee.

[jo5ephedward5]

Update:

 

Received a response from Black Horse following my letter to remind them they had not responded to their letter dated 15th Feb 2013 within the designated time.

 

Dear Mr E.

 

I refer to your complaint about the sale of Payment Protection Insurance.

 

Please find enclosed for your information a copy of the letter we have previously sent you in response to your complaint.

 

Your sincerely

 

Vicky Watts [PP’d]

Senior Manager.

 

 

 

So to reiterate – I wrote to them in Feb RE: PPI refund, they responded on the 14th Feb with the letter in an earlier post [number 12] refusing my claim – then on the 15th Feb I got another letter saying they were looking into it and would get back to me within 8 weeks, 8 weeks passed and no replay, I wrote again and said they were now outside of the 8 weeks and they’ve now sent me a copy of the first letter they sent from the 14th Feb!

 

 

I’m not sure what to do now.

[ims21]

You are now free to pass this to fos to deal with.

[jo5ephedward5]

...should I go back to BH one last time to state why I think I still have a valid claim - I just don't want the FOS to claim I havent exhausted the internal complaints procedure?

 

After-all just because an agreement has a signature on it bares no relevance to the legitimacy in which it was sold? - Seems very convenient to just hide behind the fact the people who did the selling are no longer trading?

 

J

[ims21]

It is up to you.

 

You can keep on at them for as long as you like. I think fos would see from the correspondence that you have done all you can and it is the other side who are using delaying tactics.

[jo5ephedward5]

OK, should I copy BH in on any correspondence to the FOS?

 

also I've had a look at my 'loan agreement' and where PPI is selected it says in accordance with clause 7 of the agreement - clause 7 of the credit agreement is not in relation to PPI so I'm assuming this is referring to a PPI agreement - seems a little misleading to me?

 

J

[ims21]

No you don't have to copy BH in on anything now.

 

Just send copies of all of your correspondence with your complaint to fos.