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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

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      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Uninsured car in court 4th oct


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hi there

 

Sorry Im struggling to get my head round what to do in this situation

 

I have had 1 letter which is a requisition that I attend court on the 4th Oct ( which i cant as I am working ) And I want to reply to the case stating my side

 

So it is for no insurance on a vehicle which I, probably in my naivety, thought was sorned and okay

 

I sent the sorn notice off in Feb, didnt get any response but to be honest never chased it. It was off road and still is, parked on private ground. I didnt know it had to be insured when sorned, and again, never took much notice to the new rules...:|

 

I am not insurance dodging as i have 2 motorbikes which are insured and tax n tested.

 

I have not received any other letters from anyone until this court letter, so didnt know anything about it....also the tax on the car runs out today and i havent had notification, so this makes me think that there is a problem in the system somewhere as surely i would have had a notification unless it was noted as sorn?

 

As soon as I got this letter I insured the car, seeing as it has to be done so by law

 

 

I have looked up the penalties and it says up to 6 points, to which this can make me unemployed as I am a bus driver which 6 points is a no no ....

 

 

SOOO can anyone help/advise do i plead guilty/not guilty /write a letter in my defence ?

 

If so can anyone help me draft a letter, pretty please

 

 

Thanks in advance

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Using (which for most purposes means driving) a car without insurance is 6-8 points. Keeping (and not SORNing) an uninsured car is a separate offence under the new continuous insurance requirements, and while you can get a fine of up to £1000 (in practice probably quite a bit lower, depending on your income), it doesn't carry penalty points. So whatever happens you won;t be getting points for this.

 

You don;t have to have insurance if the vehicle was both SORNed and in a private place. Has it been SORNed for less than a year? Did you get an acknowledgement from the DVLA when you SORNed it?

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The Clerk to the Justices

xxxxxx Magistrates Court,

 

Ref: as on the summons.

 

Sir,

 

It is with due respect that I write to plead guilty to the offence I am called to answer, no disrepect to the court is intended by dealing with this by letter.

 

I am employed as bus driver and am unable to get leave from work.

 

In mitigation I state that I was ignorant of the change in the law regarding insuring a motor vehichle whilst properly notified to the DVLA as stored off road, the vehicle concerned was and still is stored off road on private land.

 

Immediately on being informed of the offence I insured said vehicle ( copy of certificate of insurance attached, at no time was this vehicle upon the public highway whilst not insured.

 

I ask with due respect that the matter be treated with leniency as if the maximum penalty for this offence is applied I will most certainly lose my employment with consequential hardship for my self and my family (use that only if it actually applies)

 

Yours faithfully

etc.

 

Due to the closeness of the hearing I suggest you hand deliver this to the court office asap.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

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Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Do not plead guilty if you are not guilty!

 

You say the car was SORNed and parked on private land? If so, then you are not required to have the vehicle insured. If anything, the DVLA have spooked you into incurring costs that you didn't need as you now have insurance running on a SORNed car that sdoesn't need it.

 

Your main concern should be to establish why the car does not seem to be recorded correctly as SORNed by the DVLA.

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Wrong!! All vehicles MUST be CONTINUOSLY INSURED!!!!! Where ever and how so ever kept/stored.

 

 

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

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Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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The way I read the OP is that the vehicle was taxed;

I have not received any other letters from anyone until this court letter, so didnt know anything about it....also the tax on the car runs out today and i havent had notification, so this makes me think that there is a problem in the system somewhere as surely i would have had a notification unless it was noted as sorn?

 

Seems they sent off the SORN notice, but never claimed a road tax refund. Possibly the SORN was never processed which then flagged the car up as uninsured hence the court case. Maybe the car is SORN'ed but at the DVLA the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.

Can the poster offer any proof of sending off the SORN Declaration? Either way if they make a statement to the effect that they sent off for a SORN in February, then there is a possibility that the DVLA lost the documentation. When a vehicle has a SORN, there is no need to insure it.

By the same token, the poster has not insured it, so needs to tax it as soon as possible unless they chase up the first request for a SORN.

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As irt is SORN it has to be kept off the road and not in any public place so there is no law thatsays you need insurance. However if during this time it is burned out or stolen or both you lose the lot -up to you really.

If a car has a years tax then it is not SORN - has to be one or the other

Uninsured cars cannot be parked on the road or in a public place.

 

So,,cos it was taxed,,it had to be insured....and that was news to me too

Lillibelle

 

I only know what I know cos I know it,I only give advice,I'm not legally trained nor do I pretend to be.

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Please note the law has changed any vehicle MUST be Insured Stored off road or not, as the op says he did not realise that the law has changed.

The DVLA is not chasing a SORN but is chasing the fact the vehicle in not insured the is no other case to answer.!!

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Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Please note the law has changed any vehicle MUST be Insured Stored off road or not, as the op says he did not realise that the law has changed.

The DVLA is not chasing a SORN but is chasing the fact the vehicle in not insured the is no other case to answer.!!

My understanding is that if the vehicle has a SORN, then there is no need to insure it. Here is the link.

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I think it's about time people did some reading.

 

The Law changed all vehicles MUST BE CONTINUOSLY INSURED STORED OFF ROAD OR NOT.

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My understanding is that if the vehicle has a SORN, then there is no need to insure it. Here is the link.

 

Your understanding is wrong and the link is out of date, a vehicle must be insured SOR or not!

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Your understanding is wrong and the link is out of date, a vehicle must be insured SOR or not!

I think you're mistaken on this one; a vehicle which is SORNed and kept off road is exempt from the continuous insurance requirements. Here's the actual law

 

(1)A person (“the registered keeper”) in whose name a vehicle which does not meet the insurance requirements is registered at any particular time (“the relevant time”) does not commit an offence under section 144A of this Act at that time if any of the following conditions are satisfied...

 

(several conditions which don't apply here)

 

(5)The fourth condition is that—

(a)the registered keeper is at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle,

(b)at the relevant time the vehicle is not used on a road or other public place, and

©the registered keeper has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under subsection (7)(a) below that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time. (ie SORN)

If this is no longer the case, can you point to when the law changed?
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I think you're mistaken on this one; a vehicle which is SORNed and kept off road is exempt from the continuous insurance requirements. Here's the actual law

 

If this is no longer the case, can you point to when the law changed?

 

Seems some people cannot be bothered to read up on the legislation and then offer incorrect advice. I am very surprised at Brigadier though as they have offered good advice in the past and are part of the site team which is very worrying!

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The way I read the OP is that the vehicle was taxed;

I have not received any other letters from anyone until this court letter, so didnt know anything about it....also the tax on the car runs out today and i havent had notification, so this makes me think that there is a problem in the system somewhere as surely i would have had a notification unless it was noted as sorn?

 

Seems they sent off the SORN notice, but never claimed a road tax refund. Possibly the SORN was never processed which then flagged the car up as uninsured hence the court case. Maybe the car is SORN'ed but at the DVLA the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.

Can the poster offer any proof of sending off the SORN Declaration? Either way if they make a statement to the effect that they sent off for a SORN in February, then there is a possibility that the DVLA lost the documentation. When a vehicle has a SORN, there is no need to insure it.

By the same token, the poster has not insured it, so needs to tax it as soon as possible unless they chase up the first request for a SORN.

 

thanks for the quick replies all.. much appreciated, though still a little confused still..

 

Im assuming that it should have been insured regardless to it being on sorn.... hasnt been driven

 

unfortunatley i dont have proof that i sent off the sorn notice, but it confuses me that i havent has a renewal notice either

 

Im guessing i need to disregard the letter done for me, thanks though Brig

 

so still none the wiser what to plead or what to put in the letter lol :)

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I have placed a specific enquiry on line with the DVLA rergarding the status of a SORN, there appears to be some conflict withini the new regulation>

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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thanks for the quick replies all.. much appreciated, though still a little confused still..

 

Im assuming that it should have been insured regardless to it being on sorn.... hasnt been driven

 

unfortunatley i dont have proof that i sent off the sorn notice, but it confuses me that i havent has a renewal notice either

 

Im guessing i need to disregard the letter done for me, thanks though Brig

 

so still none the wiser what to plead or what to put in the letter lol :)

 

If the car had a SORN there is no need for it to be insured. If the car did not have a SORN and was taxed, then by law it needs to be insured. Apologies for the confusing and incorrect information which some well meaning people have posted.

At this point first off all check to see if a SORN was raised for the vehicle when you applied in February. I have no idea whether you get anything back from DVLA if a SORN is confirmed. The point is that you applied for and post the application which may then remove the onus away from you similar to notifying the DVLA of change of keeper and them losing it after it has been posted.

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As irt is SORN it has to be kept off the road and not in any public place so there is no law thatsays you need insurance. However if during this time it is burned out or stolen or both you lose the lot -up to you really.

If a car has a years tax then it is not SORN - has to be one or the other

Uninsured cars cannot be parked on the road or in a public place.

 

So,,cos it was taxed,,it had to be insured....and that was news to me too

 

 

 

And where was the confusing misleading information there?????

Lillibelle

 

I only know what I know cos I know it,I only give advice,I'm not legally trained nor do I pretend to be.

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As irt is SORN it has to be kept off the road and not in any public place so there is no law thatsays you need insurance. However if during this time it is burned out or stolen or both you lose the lot -up to you really.

If a car has a years tax then it is not SORN - has to be one or the other

Uninsured cars cannot be parked on the road or in a public place.

 

So,,cos it was taxed,,it had to be insured....and that was news to me too

 

 

 

And where was the confusing misleading information there?????

 

Do you remember posting "Brigadier2jcs is absolutely right,,,,Law has changed"? :-)

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The lesson to be learned here (by me as well) is that the legislation is confused and confusing.

If a vehicle is to be stored off road a SORN must be in place, if it is not and tax is not renewed

then the vehicle flags as uninsured, it also seems that the data base will flag any vehicle that has

no SORN and or tax/insurance/MOT, so anyone making a SORN must make absolutely sure that

the SORN is correctly placed, advice is in place that if the DVLA has NOT acknowledged the SORN within

6 weeks ( I think) then the owner must inform the DVLA.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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The lesson to be learned here (by me as well) is that the legislation is confused and confusing.

If a vehicle is to be stored off road a SORN must be in place, if it is not and tax is not renewed

then the vehicle flags as uninsured, it also seems that the data base will flag any vehicle that has

no SORN and or tax/insurance/MOT, so anyone making a SORN must make absolutely sure that

the SORN is correctly placed, advice is in place that if the DVLA has NOT acknowledged the SORN within

6 weeks ( I think) then the owner must inform the DVLA.

 

Has any one else tried to insure a vehicle while it has a SORN. Very few companies will touch it and if they do they will only give you a very basic cover. If you SORN a vehicle you have to notify the insurance company of the change of circumstances and then it will be up to them whether they want to continue insuring the vehicle. Recently first hand experience of this.

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ok :) I think im getting there lol

 

Ill ring DVLA on monday and see if it logged with them

 

So what do i plead ? guilty/ not guilty /confused ?

 

And what do i put in writting to them in regards to it

 

Grr next time i will check check and triple check everything

 

I dont have a problem with my bike stuff lol, then again i dont sorn them as theyare cheap as owt to tax

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Don't plead anything at this point except to say that you did apply for a SORN in February. Unfortunately you are guilty of having a uninsured taxed vehicle, but there may be mitigating circumstances resulting in the summons being squashed.

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