Welgemoed v Lloyds TSB ***WON***

[Sian819]

I've just sent my HMCS Money Claim Online application off .... so here goes! Fingers Crossed!

[thourb]

Good luck! It would be helpful if you could PM a mod with the details of the case (claim reference, amount claiming etc) for the litigation section.

 

Let us know how it turns out!

[Sian819]

Hi

 

Just after a bit of advice really, sorry if this is a very silly question I just don't want to get anything wrong! HMCS have issued my claim today but they want to know ...

 

The defendant has not filed an admission or defence to my claim

(Judgment by Default)

You will need to decide, how and when you want the defendant to pay. You can ask for the Judgment to be paid by instalment or in one payment.

 

or

 

The defendant admits that all the money is owed

(Judgment by Admission)

If the defendant has given a new address on the form of admission to which correspondence should be sent, update the defendant's details within the following Judgment request.

 

I'm thinking the first option but thought I would check.

 

Thanks

Sian:rolleyes:

[reload]

Hi Sian,

 

'Neither' is the option at the moment. What you are attempting to do actually results in issuing a CCJ (County Court Judgement) against Lloyds TSB. You can only do so when they have actually missed deadlines for acknowledging/defending the claim.

[thourb]

Hi Sian,

 

'Neither' is the option at the moment. What you are attempting to do actually results in issuing a CCJ (County Court Judgement) against Lloyds TSB. You can only do so when they have actually missed deadlines for acknowledging/defending the claim.

 

As Reload says, if you try to request judgement, it will tell you that you need to wait either 14 days for the bank to not acknowledge the claim, or alternatively if they do acknowledge it, a further 14 days (28 days after claim is deemed served) before you can request judgement.

 

You are correct, however, in saying that you would choose the first option, when (if) the time comes.

[Sian819]

Lovely thank you for the info

[Sian819]

Ok, got my "Notice of Issue" letter from HMCS Moneyclaim, think I might have messed up the actual details though as I only put "unfair charges levied against these bank account over this period of time" then I found the template for what I should have put! Oooops! Will they just write to me to ask for more information or will I have to file a whole new claim?? Will teach me for not researching properly first!

[stevokenevo]

off the ball question here, i recognise the name welgemoed, i stayed there in '98, a small suburb of cape town, is this correct??

[Sian819]

HA! Yes your right tiny little suburb in Cape Town quite a nice one though, think it means "well to meet" or "well met" if you translate it! Not too sure as it's my married name and I don't speak Afrikaans!

[stevokenevo]

It is a very nice area, i still have friends who live there, would love to revisit, good luck with your case!!

[Sian819]

Thank you Stevo and Congrats to you

 

Ok, so I'm thinking that I need to send a paper copy of my schedule of charges to Moneyclaim for them to attach to my file? If I'm right do I send this to the Northampton address? And will it matter that I put very little info on the online form?

 

All advice appreciated

 

Thanks

[skbuncks]

Hi Sian

You can send your schedule of charges to the court address, Northampton?, quoting your claim reference number. The court will then attach it to your claim.

 

Can you post your full particulars of claim and then maybe one of the mods can check it over and see if it needs modifying? If it does it will cost you an unrefundable £35 but may be worth it

 

skb

[Sian819]

I did literally put "unfair bank charges levied against my bank accounts for the last 6 years" with the llyodstsb reference number! (I found the template of what I should have put after I'd clicked send ) I have printed out the template and was going to send this to the court as well.

Thanks

[Sian819]

Ok, I've just sat down and done the spreadsheet's for both my account that I'm claiming for and including the court costs the total including the 8% interest is £8308.87 for the last 6 years!!!!! :o

 

As I've said I think I messed up in my MCOL form as I really did just put "unfair bank charges levied against my bank accounts for the last 6 years" so i'm going to send them paper copies of the schedules as I sent them to the bank, the spreadsheets with the interest added, the overview for both accounts, the template for the particulars of claim and a cover letter.

 

Some ppl have mentioned that I can change my claim for a fee of £35, would I just call the MCOL to arrange this and if I'm sending them all these details would I need to?

Any advice appreciated or a point in the right direction if I've overlooked the answers somewhere else on the site:rolleyes:

[thourb]

As I've said I think I messed up in my MCOL form as I really did just put "unfair bank charges levied against my bank accounts for the last 6 years"

 

If that's all that you've put in your claim form, then it won't get you anywhere! Lloyds defence would basically say that your claim doesnt provide any reference to related laws or cases and has no basis. You will need to contact the court in order to get the form to change your particulars of claim and change them to the template.

 

It is also possible that your claim would be allocated to the fast track, because with interest your claim totals more than £5000. This brings up the problem that if, in the unlikely event Lloyds took you to court and won, you could be liable for all their costs (which you wouldnt be, on the small claims track).

 

It would be up to you, in your AQ, to persuade the judge that the small claims track would be best for this case. I don't have much experience in that particular area, I would suggest to seek advice from a mod, or do a search of the forum - I believe that there are others that have been in the same situation as you and may be able to provide advice!

 

Mods or anyone else more qualified than myself, could you please clear this up a bit?

[Sian819]

HA! oooops!

 

I just called MCOL and they advised me of the precedure to change my claim. She also advised me that Llyods had Acknowledged my claim today, by the sounds of things this was very speedy on their behalf!!! Will be sending my amended details in to the court asap!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks for the advice

 

OK i just wanted to make sure that i'm submitting the correct info to the court this time so if someone could have a look at this and make sure I got the right template this time that would be great !!

 

Northampton County Court

21-27 St Katharine's Street

Northampton

NN1 2LH

 

 

BETWEEN

 

Sian Welgemoed

 

And

 

Lloyds TSB

 

 

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

Claim Number: 6QZ70167

 

 

1. The Claimant has accounts ("the Accounts") xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx with the Defendant which was opened on or around October 1997.

 

2. During the period in which the Accounts has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Accounts in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £6741.50 and any interest charged thereon;

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true

 

 

Signed: S E Welgemoed

 

 

Date: 12 October 2006

 

I did put my account numbers in the bit's I've marked xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx. I'm also enclosing the schedule of charges as it was sent to the bank and the spreadsheet with the interest added. A paper copy of the above (which I have written on in red ink on my N1 claim form) is there anything else that I should be including? Apart from a cheque for £35.00!

 

Thanks

[Sian819]

Thank you very much karnevil

 

I did amend the wording in the copies I printed out for the court, just copied and pasted from the old version ... ooops! I'm the only claimant but I am claiming for my single and joint account in one.

 

Right will get all this sent off first thing in the morning!

[Sian819]

Defence was filed by Lloyds on the 30/10/06 and the case moved to the central London court.

 

I've been trying to amend my N1 form to show more details of the particulars of my claim however as the defence was filed MCOL have returned my fee and N1 form unchanged! Hmmmm trying to contact the London court now but they are constantly busy!! Fun and games hey!

 

Anyways just thought I would update this thread

[Sian819]

Ok

just a few questions about my Allocation Questionnaire ..... I have looked at the help thread and it was very helpful ;-) but still have a few more questions about it just to make sure!

1.) Should I copy everything and send these copies to SC & M?

2.) Section B - Location of Trail - They have already moved the claim to the nearest court to me so should I put anything in this field?

3.) Section D - Track - My claim is for just over £6k before interest, should I tick the Fast Track box as I know this is the track my claim should be and then try and convince the judge in Section H - Other Info that it should be heard in the Small Claims Track? Or should I tick the Small Claims Track here and again try and convince the judge? i.e. "I am respectfully requesting that my claim be allocated to the small claims track. This issue is not a complicated one; it is an issue of fact and not of law. The issue is only whether the money levied by the Defendant in respect of its customer’s contractual breaches exceed their actual costs incurred. I am happy to pay their actual costs and I am surprised the Defendant did not counterclaim for these, because I would have paid them without argument"

4.) Section F - Proposed Directions - I read and reread this and still couldn't make head nor tail of it, any advice? "Attach the list of directions, if any, you believe will be appropriate to be given for the management of the claim. Agreed directions on fast and multi-track cases should be based on the forms of standard directions set out in the practice direction to CPR Part 28 and form PF52.

This might include a directive to force the defendant (bank) to comply with a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act, or to include a direction that parties make Standard Disclosure." Is there anything I should be attaching to my form with regards to this section?

5.) Section H - Other Info - the question "Do you intend to make any applications in the immediate future?" What does this mean?

Ok thats it so far! I'm going to include the particulars of the claim that I typed up as I didn't get to add them to my N1 form and also all the schedule of charges and the spreadsheets showing the interest calculated.

I'm sorry if these are really obvious questions but I messed up the online claim form so I wanted to get this right and not allow Lloyds any room to wriggle out of this!!!!

[Sian819]

Hi There

 

Was just wondering if anyone could give me some advice with my questions?

 

thanks

[midge61]

Hi

Here is a link for the advice on completing the AQ

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/11644-allocation-questionnaires-guide-completion.html

Its very helpful and should answer most of your questions

Good luck

[Sian819]

Thanks for the link, this was the page I used to complete the AQ it just left me with the questions I posted so if anyone could have a quick look that would be great. I messed up my MCOL form so I wanted to get this right!!!

[GaryH]

Hi Sian,

 

Firstly, can you just clarify whether or not your claim was actually amended in the end? If not, I assume that Lloyds defence contends in para's 1-5 that your claim, amongst other things, is not adequately particularised and should be struck out, yes? If this is the case you really need to push on and get it amended ASAP. Take/send your completed N244 and new particulars and schedule to the court at the same time as you return your AQ.

 

As for your questions;

 

1) You are not obliged to send a copy of your AQ to the other side, but it is good practise to do so.

 

2) No, no need to put anything if its currently at the court nearest to you.

 

3) In all likelyhood your claim will be allocated to the fast track. However, you can attempt to get it allocated to the small claims track if you wish, its up to you. The fast track, in my (non-legally trained!) opinion, is nothing to fear - in fact it does have advantages. I'll try to briefly sum up the pro's and con's;

 

£5000 is the top limit for small claims track claims. Anything over that would generally go into the fast track. With this comes a very small risk. In the small claims track there is a no costs rule. This means that the losing party is not liable the costs of the other side, so bringing an action in the small claims track is virtually risk-free. In the fast track, the no costs rule does not apply. So theoretically, if your case went to court and you lost, you may be liable to pay Lloyds solicitors and other legal costs.

 

In reality however, this risk - in my opinion - is very, very small. Minute even. A), the chances of your case getting to court are very low - of 1000's of claims so far not one has yet. B), even if you did go to court, the chances of losing are small (which is why the banks always pay up beforehand!), and C), even in the almost unthinkable event that you went to court and lost, it is still not likely at all that the judge would award costs against you to a £multi-billion organisation.

 

On the other hand, IMO the chances of your claim getting as far as court reduce from slim to very slim if its in the fast track. This is becouse an order of standard disclosure can be made as a matter of course. This means that Lloyds would have to reveal the true administrative costs of their charging system prior to the trial - which is obviously something that they really, really don't want to do!

 

4) Put something like - "For the reasons set out in section H, it is respectfully requested that the defendant be ordered to make standard disclosure."

 

5) What you put for section H depends on whether you want to try for the small claims track or not. If you do, put the whole of the template as per the guide notes. If you're happy with the fast track, just include the last paragraph that requests standard disclosure.

 

Hope this helps.

[Sian819]

Gary

 

That's perfect thank you very much.

 

My original form was never amended so I shall get on to having that amended asap!

 

Thanks again

[Sian819]

So have sent off my AQ and recieved one back from SC&M, is it now just a case of waiting for a court date?