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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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PCN Number? - Private Parking Company


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I've also read people just avoid these private PCNs, which I can do, but I don't think any future hassle is worth the £30, lol.

 

All you need to do is ignore the 5 or 6 letters you will get. Don't be frightened by them and don't reply to them. Just bin them. Nothing will happen to you.

 

If doing that's going to leave you £30 better off than if you pay, it has to be worth it. Or, if you like, send me £30 and I'll ignore them for you!

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Take you to court for what? Not giving them money you never owed them in the first place? See ManxRed's post number 8. If he sticks a bill on your car for £10,000 for breaking one of his rules which he made up, do you think he could sue you too?

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When you guys say I never 'owed them', what do you mean, exactly? If the board reads that I will be charged, isn't that enough for them to charge me? I'm assuming not. Then what is the purpose of them then? Just to scare folks and see if they pay up? The car park is free, but I did leave the area for a couple of hours btw. so I do feel I abused their 'offer'. So, I gather there will be no hearing in courts then? If that is 99% guaranteed, I am fine to ignore it. Danke!

 

The idea of the notice board is that you read the terms and conditions and consent to them by parking. Thus, you have entered into a contract.

 

There are valid clauses in a contract, and there are invalid ones. For example, if it had a clause which said, "failure to display a ticket authorises us to shoot you" that would be invalid. Regardless of the contract, it would be against the law and the law takes precendence.

 

In this situation, it is against the law for any private person or company to issue penalty charges - which is just another word for fines. They have no right to do that, so that clause in the contract is invalid.

 

If you have genuinely breached contract, then their redress is to sue you for their financial losses resulting from the breach of contract - which, especially in a free car park, is nothing. They can sue you for nothing.

 

Hope that makes it clearer why you don't owe them, you never owed them, and they can't make you pay.

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It's got nothing to do with the police. It's none of the police's business who was driving, and the fact that some company would like to know for their own benefit is also none of their business. You haven't broken the law - no-one has.

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You can safely park there again. If you keep breaking the terms, they might do something more drastic - check if there are clamping signs up for instance. Or, they will hound you with letters and phone calls. Or they might try and take it to court just to try and deter you.

 

Don't worry - this was a single mistake - they won't even remember your car or reg number. Carry on parking there as usual.

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Except that if you read through the threads you regularly get comments from people saying they had the same, they ignored it, and nothing happened. So there is feedback in this respect if someone wanted to plough through all the threads and find them.

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Haha, that's reassuring. Now I'm mildly curious on how their offices work. Like, isn't it quite embarrassing for the people behind the computer screens to just say 'Oh, we sent this person six letters already, but to no avail. We shall now give up" ? I would've gotten it if it were all automated, but the fact some human involvement is required to even see what's next on their Threat-0-grams is quite sad. Buncha bullies!

 

It is automated. They have a series of letters - there are even websites where you can go and look at them. Their computer system generates letter 1, then letter 2 etc until the last one is sent out, and the computer stops generating any more letters.

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  • 1 month later...

It's possible the picked you up on camera. No-one on the forum would know whether they did or where their cameras are etc. It's possible.

 

How does it work if they did? Exactly the same as now.

 

Would they not have mentioned it? Maybe, maybe not. It's not important.

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  • 2 weeks later...

They won't call the police, and if they did it is extremely unlikely that the police would be interested - there's no crime involved. Moreover, you don't have to tell the police either. You have the right to remain silent.

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