Cap1 & CCA return

[BLADES65]

Marbles Credit Card

 

CCA request sent 5th May 2007

 

Signed for 10th May 2007

 

Today received a recorded letter back from HFC dated 30th may 2007.

 

The package included last 6 months statements but NO Agreement.

 

The letter states:

 

Dear Mrs xxxxx

 

Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 4th May 2007 requesting information regarding the above account.

 

Please find below the account information relating to your account in accordance with section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

 

Date Account Opened xxxxxxxxxxxx

Payment Due Date xxxxxxx

Original Credit Limit xxxxxxxxxx

Last Payment Amount xxxxxxx

Current Balance xxxxxxxx

Account Status xxxxxxxxxx

 

Please find enclosed a statement of account, please note we are still trying to locate a copy of yopur legal agreement, which will be forwarded in due course, the statement enclosed will list any payments received or charges incurred to date.

 

I trust the information I have provided to you is to your satisfaction but should you require anything further, please do not hestitate to contact me.

 

 

Your sincerely

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Senior Payment Advisor

HFC Bank limited

 

 

What should I do now?

[BLADES65]

Yes, came by special delivery this morning.

 

I have a feeling they don't have the agreements.

 

I'm still waiting for 4 more CCA requests from HFC, all over the 12 days just waiting for the extra 30 before sending off non compliance letters.

[BLADES65]

Letter just received.

 

Wescott have passed account back to HFC Bank after CCA request so they can deal with it direct.

 

Anyone else had anything like this occur.

 

I am assuming thay cannot produce the agreement.

[BLADES65]

Well 1st Credit/MBNA sent their interpretation of a Credit Card agreement.

Barely readable photostat of a fax by the looks of it.

 

Also all of it is hand filled in apart from what appears to be a typed sticker with my name and old address details on.

 

No T&C's, no APR info, No upto date statement. Just this unreadable single sided sheet.

 

Any ideas what next folks.

[BLADES65]

Received a CCA reply from 1st Credit/MBNA enclosing a single side A4 sheet. All unreadable apart from hand filled in info. Also what appears to be a label with my name and old address typed on.

 

I've blurred personal details.

 

[BLADES65]

What is the agreement meant to be for, it states visa?

Looks like a loan application?

or is it a cc application form?

 

The doc. is almost illegible, is that just due to your copy, or is this how it was sent to you.

 

Perhaps, you could scan or ,shoot a pic of the doc. and then photobucket it, therby obtain a clearer image.

 

AC

 

Hi AC,

 

It's a MBNA Visa Card account. The picture is a high res (10 megapixel) pic of the actual doc sent so what you see is what I got.

 

Like you said it's illegible.

 

What should I do now. Their 12 + 2 days are up and they are 10 days in to the 30.

 

Thanks

[BLADES65]

Do nothing until the 30 days is up.

 

After the 30 days what's the next step?

[BLADES65]

Under s.61 [1][c] that for the document to be properly executed it must be

readily legible.

I am unsure that by sending you a copy that is pretty illegible is grounds

for you to claim that they are now in default. Since were the document the

actual executed agreement, then they do have it in their possession-unlike

many other companies. So not to ask for a legible copy, which is your right,

may count against you when going for unenforceability.

That is just my opinion- I could be wrong. But it might be worth pointing out

to them that your copy is unintelligible and could they please send one that

you can understand.

Then, if they don't respond, or send another similar illegible copy, you have

stronger grounds to argue the case. Of course it may be that they only

have the application and are trying to disguise the fact.

 

With respect haven't I already fulfilled my part of the CCA 1974 by requesting a 'true executed copy' and paying the statutory fee.

 

Their duty is to supply a legible true copy which they have clearly failed to do and so are in default.

[BLADES65]

Hi

I think this is a true executed copy of a newspaper that has been out in the rain for few days.

Send them the usual faiure to comply clock is ticking don't dare put anythngon my credit record or i will have you letter.

Report them to the oFT and then fill in the letter above so we can add it to the list of complints to the dti.

 

Best regards

Peter

 

Thanks Peter. Any templates for such a letter available based on the totally illegible excuse for an agreement they have sent.

 

Regards

 

BLADES65

[BLADES65]

Following on fromk my recent post and the illegible CCA request from 1st Credit/MBNA could you give your opinions on the letter I am about to send requesting they fulfil their obligations under CCA 1974.:

 

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx

4th July 2007

 

First Credit Limited

Enterprise House

Bancroft Road

Reigate

Surrey. RH2 7RP

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I refer to my letter dated 4th May 2007 which was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices 9th May 2007.

 

You have failed to acknowledge this request by supplying the requested documents. The documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account.

On 1st June 2007 an illegible A4 sheet was delivered by post along with a 1st Credit compliment slip.

 

In my letter of the 4th May 2007 I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Section 77(1) and Section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act.

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, your company commit an offence. These time limits expired on 24th May 2007 and will expire 25th June 2007 respectively.

 

As you are no doubt aware, Section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore on 24th May 2007 this account became unenforceable at law and no further payment will be made by myself to the account, as you have failed to comply with a request for a true signed copy of the said agreement, and other relevant documents mentioned in it, and failed to send a full statement of the account, under the relevant sections of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Further, I do not acknowledge any debt to 1st Credit and or MBNA.

 

 

I look forward to your reply within 14 days to resolve the matter amicably.

Yours Sincerely

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks.

[BLADES65]

Hi all,

 

Another Application form received after CCA request. This time from HFC for a GM Card. This is the original leaflet I picked up in the Vauxhall garage.

 

Single sided A4 sheet with last 6 statements in envelope.

 

This is the A4 sheet:

 

 

 

Thoughts please

 

Thanks

[BLADES65]

Blades:

 

recommend you remove the application number from that can and re post it!!

 

Done

[BLADES65]

Draft of letter in response to receipt of application for above.

 

Is this ok or should I put in something about not acknowledgeing the debt.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

Litigation Advisor

HFC Bank

PO Box 4716

Camden House West

Birmingham

B1 3RD

 

Dear Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

However, I made a request to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send me a true copy of my executed agreement but have only sent me a copy of the initial application form and some recent statements.

 

A regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of my statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided to me and must be those applicable at the time that the agreement was signed.

 

I would therefore be obliged if you would send me a true copy of these documents as soon as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[BLADES65]

Whats the concensus on what the course of action is after just receiving an application form after a CCa request.

 

Do we write and tell them or wait till the 12+2 + 30 days?

 

Could they try and take action as we have stopped paying and they think they have fulfilled their obligations.

[BLADES65]

My feeling exactly Peter.

 

Surely to anything else is akin to burying your head in the sand. I would rather deal with the situation and get it over and done with than having a niggling doubt in the back of my mind.

[BLADES65]

NEW LETTER BASED ON PETER's Comments:

 

xxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

The request was made to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send a true copy of the executed agreement.

The application form which you have furnished as a true copy of the executed agreement does not meet the requirements laid down in the CCA s77/78.

A regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided and must be those applicable at the time that an agreement is signed.

I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and as the document does not meet the requirements of the CCA 1974 it is unenforceable and as a consequence no further payments will

be made.

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thoughts please

[BLADES65]

Hows this:

 

 

 

 

 

xxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

The request was made to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send a legible true copy of the executed agreement.

As I am sure you are aware a regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided and must be those applicable at the time that an agreement is signed.

Could I therefore ask why you have furnished an application form as a true copy of an executed agreement? this does not meet the requirements laid down in the CCA s61/127 as such it is unenforceable and as a consequence I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and no further payments will be made.

 

 

 

 

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxx

[BLADES65]

Peter this is a copy of the letter I intend to send:

 

Dear Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

The request was made to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement held by yourselves applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send a legible true copy of the executed agreement.

 

I am pleased that you confirm this is a true copy of the original executed agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware a regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided and must be those applicable at the time that an agreement is signed.

 

You must therefore realise the document you have supplied does not correspond in form and content to the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and is therefore completely unenforceable.

 

As a consequence I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and no further payments will be made towards this alleged debt.

 

Any court action you may take will be vigorously defended using Sections 61 and 127 of the CCA 1974, which will preclude a judge from making an enforcement order in this instance.

 

Any earlier actions relating to sharing of data with credit reference agencies or defaults should be immediately removed. Confirmation and acknowledgement of this letter should be received within the next 14 days.

 

 

 

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxx

[BLADES65]

Reading with interest... The copy Ive jst received from MBNA is a joke! Even worse than what Barclaycard sent me!

 

Can you post a copy?

[BLADES65]

Peter, thankyou for the clarification. I had thought that you intended first

to write to the OC asking them to confirm that this is the executed copy

and if it is, ask them for instructions as to how they want the matter to progress in the way of repayments.

On receipt of their letter whether they confirm that one has been sent the

executed agreement or not, that would be the time to write back and say

that the document was unenforceable.

 

 

I find the last sentence of your letter interesting. I have been led to believe

that by declaring the debt unenforceable, you are tacitly admitting that

you do not acknowledge the debt. It seems difficult then to ask for money back from that debt.

 

From my own point of view winning the battle over enforceability is the first hurdle, then the files of the CRA's.

 

Requesting reapyments made may be a step too far. Just my opinion though.

[BLADES65]

I would agree with you lookinforinfo, but I think the key word in the last sentence is "considering". You are not actually committing to doing anything.

 

 

Any views on my proposed letter please Rory.

 

Thanks

[BLADES65]

Might it be an idea to remind them that the statements they made in their letters regarding your S78 request are binding by virtue of S172?

 

Statements by creditor or owner to be binding.

 

172.--(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under--

section 77(1),

section 78(1),

section 79(1),

section 97(1),

section 107(1)©,

section 108(1)©, or

section 109(1)©.

(2) Where a trader--

(a) gives a customer a notice in compliance with section 103(1)(b), or

(b) gives a customer a notice under section 103(1) asserting that the customer is not indebted to him under an agreement, the notice is binding on the trader.

(3) Where in proceedings before any court--

(a) it is sought to reply on a statement or notice given as mentioned in subsection (1) or (2), and

(b) the statement or notice is shown to be incorrect, the court may direct such relief (if any) to be given to the creditor or owner from the operation of subsection (1) or (2) as appears to the court to be just.

 

Why remind them, better to keep the fact as amunition in any future case.

[BLADES65]

Received this in response to CCA request to HFC for Marbles Card.

 

1 A4 sheet again.

 

 

Any thoughts please on its enforceability

 

Thanks.

[BLADES65]

SNAP!!!! This is exactley what I got after my request for the CCA in January, it turned up last week! I'm not sure what to do now, but it's not what I asked for, anyone?:-?

 

I've sent off my usual response:

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Senior Payments Advisor

HFC Bank

PO Box 1520

Birmingham

B1 3PR

ROYAL MAIL RECORDED No. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

The request was made to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement held by yourselves applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send a legible true copy of the executed agreement.

 

I am pleased that you confirm this is a true copy of the original executed agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware a regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided and must be those applicable at the time that an agreement is signed. You must therefore realise the document you have supplied does not correspond in form and content to the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and is therefore completely unenforceable.

 

As a consequence I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and no further payments will be made towards this alleged debt. Any court action you may take will be vigorously defended using Sections 61 and 127 of the CCA 1974, which will preclude a judge from making any enforcement order in this instance.

 

Any earlier actions relating to sharing of data with credit reference agencies or defaults should be immediately removed. Confirmation and acknowledgement of this letter should be received within the next 14 days.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[BLADES65]

Received a lovely letter from 1st Credit regarding MBNA Credit Card.

 

The letter received was in response to this letter I sent:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

The request was made to you on 4th May 2007 for a copy of the executed agreement held by yourselves applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send a legible true copy of the executed agreement.

 

I am pleased that you confirm this is a true copy of the original executed agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware a regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided and must be those applicable at the time that an agreement is signed.

 

You must therefore realise the document you have supplied does not correspond in form and content to the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and is therefore completely unenforceable.

 

As a consequence I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and no further payments will be made towards this alleged debt.

 

Any court action you may take will be vigorously defended using Sections 61 and 127 of the CCA 1974, which will preclude a judge from making an enforcement order in this instance.

 

Any earlier actions relating to sharing of data with credit reference agencies or defaults should be immediately removed. Confirmation and acknowledgement of this letter should be received within the next 14 days.

 

 

Mr xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

This letter was sent after receiving this after a CCA Request:

 

 

The letter from 1st Credit:

 

 

 

It was dated 13th July 2007 !!!

 

They will have commited an offence under CCA on 25th June 2007.

 

Looks like game on.

 

Should I bypass 1st Credit now and deal direct with MBNA

 

Thoughts please.