Ingeus

[Mr.P]

bloody hell, is it mandatory to sign up to the ingeus works site?

 

If you have declined to sign their DPA waiver, and you get mandated to use the ingues(sic)work site, it opens up a can of worms. The cookies policy alone would cause me to raise a finger, as would the operating system & browser query. They would claim "it is to improve our service", I would suggest that it would be to identify systems open to being compromised (but then I trust no one). Time to fire up a Tor connection - That will keep 'em guessing.

[Mr.P]

oh great, can i refuse to use the site from my home computer?

 

No, no, NO. Do not ever "refuse". Always "Decline", and insist it is correctly recorded, even if you have to use a red pen !

Or you could disable cookies and claim ignorance on all things computer related*....

 

* We is unemployed, we is fick, wot do we no 'bout 'puters ?

[Mr.P]

Therefore should they insist you sign up to Ingeus Works you should point out to your advisor that as Ingeus track/monitor their own site....he/she will be in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998..... and you will report them to the ICO........simplez.!

 

Also beat them around the head with the e-Privacy Directive (the EU cookie law) - You do not consent to third parties (in this case, Ingeus) storing "cookies" on your computer or collecting information about your software or browsing habits.

 

Nimitz: You might want to add a section objecting to the use of cookies if you haven't already done so

[Mr.P]

Just a quick note..Ingeus is not a third party. They are a data processor for DWP, therefore they can have ones data if one is daft enough to provide it.

 

I am well aware of the data processor/controller relationship between the DWP and Ingeus (or any other WP provider) - Grounds for limiting the amount of personal information handed to the JCP methinks.

 

Anyways, my comment regarding "third parties" was in relation to my own (or your) personal computer - In this case, a third party is anyone/everyone connected to the internet on the outside of my firewall.

[Mr.P]

[...]is there anything i can do to help with my anxiety nervousness and worrying?

 

Having been through the system when it was FnD, I found myself having to deal with a number of personal issues thanks to the drones. Managed to blag my way on to some free one day courses being run by the local University which helped to improve my confidence. The courses also gave me a chance to "network" with other people in a similar situation.

 

One answer could be to imagine them naked?

Good grief, that would leave many of us mentally scarred for life. Better to imagine them as one of the Daily Mail's skiving benefit scroungers - Even better, point out that the advisers are just a stroke of a pen away from being in the same boat themselves.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

Mine have effectively stolen bus fare which they claim is legit as I was a few minutes late

Sometimes there's not enough money to pay everyone's bus fare but no-one is vocal about that

 

Had a similar issue with A4e - They refused to refund my bus fare because I declined to sign some worthless papers. One written complaint later (that was cc'd to my MP and the JCP), and a postal order arrived by recorded delivery within a few days.

 

The drone is required to refund travel expenses and childcare costs promptly and without argument. If they are failing, then it is only reasonable that a formal complaint is lodged through the appropriate channels. i.e. DWP & local MP.

 

they treat me with a bad attitude, like laughing at the jobs ive applied for and even asking personal questions which am i right in thinking they have no right to do?

 

You have a right to be treated with dignity and respect. If the "advisers" cultivates an attitude of denigration and contempt, it is reasonable to reciprocate. If you have the conversations on tape, would also be worth contacting a newspaper - See: Guardian-asking-for-Work-Programme-experiences. I've had dealings with Amelia in the past, and if nothing else, she has a sympathetic ear.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

So legally even though I was a few minutes late they still have to refund my money?

I thought mine were thieving drones - probably can't use other terms which are equally accurate

 

There are no strings attached. The guidance notes that the provider should be following clearly states that travel expenses should be refunded - See: provider-guidance Chapter 19 - no strings attached.! File a complaint with the DWP and encourage other victims to follow suit. At some point, it will become clear to the DWP that there is systemic failures that might trigger a fraud investigation. Contrary to popular belief, complaints are logged and have an effect in the long term.

 

If you need hard copies of any of the guidance notes, feel free to use their facilities to print the stuff out.

 

As for being late - Sometimes sh*t happens and you are unavoidably delayed, as I was once due to a case of CBA*. But generally I made a point of being early, and if the "adviser" was late, pointing out "I was on time, why aren't you ?".

 

 

*CBA: Can't be arsed.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

I fear once you have been formally mandated to attend (the letter must contain words to the effect that "if you fail to attend without good reason, your benefits may be affected"), you must go or risk being sanctioned. However, before being mandated, you should have had the opportunity to discuss the "course" and have the justification as to why they thought it "appropriate to your needs or circumstances".

 

Go back to who ever sent you the letter and ask for reasons and justification - If you have any child (or elderly) care responsibilities that would conflict with the attendance times, point these out as "just reason" for not attending.

 

Serving a DPA waiver retraction now would not get you out of attending *this time, and I doubt it would stop them from putting you on similar courses in the future.

[Mr.P]

Ways to p*** off a provider:

 

Adviser claims that "due to a security breach involving confidential client records, we can not use the [store]room for this meeting.".... FoI request to the DWP: In light of this claimed security breach, how many cases have been reported by WP providers during the lifetime of their current contract ?

 

On overhearing a pair of "advisers" openly discussing someone's criminal record... FoI request to the DWP: In light of advisers discussing details of Mr X's criminal record, how many breaches of client confidentiality have been reported to the DWP/JCP ?

 

Duck while the proverbial hits the fan

[Mr.P]

If you are filing FoI requests with the DWP/JCP, it only inconveniences them - Over the course of nine months, I filed just three, the first asking "How many complaints have been received about the providers in *this area ?"

From the response, I learnt that written complaints are recorded, and to some extent, guide future policy.

 

Repeatedly asking the same question every two or three months will eventually be met with a f.o. & "stop wasting our time" response - Far better is to listen and record specific instances of bullying, harassment, or possibly fraudulent behaviour. Then ask pointed questions, using Chester6's post on the preceding as an example:

On [date], and again on [date], myself, and others were denied legitimate travel expenses contrary to DWP Provider Guidance, Chapter 19, Section 31 (page 8). Under the Freedom of Information Act, I require answers to the following questions:

 

1. How many similar refusals of reimbursement of expenses have been reported to the DWP/JCP in the last twelve months by providers delivering the current Work Programme in this area ?
   
2. How many times has the DWP/JCP issued reprimands to the providers in this area with respect to failures to reimburse expenses in full ?
   

Two simple questions of limited scope that should result in the offending drone getting a reminder, draws the attention of the DWP to a possibility of financial irregularities, and (hopefully) get travel expenses refunded in full. If the provider has previous record of failures, the DWP may even kick off at a higher level, but as the question has been asked, they can not ignore it (even better if your local MP has been cc'd on the request). Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

His name is Stewart Jackson

 

Well, if he is so keen on reclaiming "expenses" above and beyond what most people would consider reasonable, I would expect him to support you in reclaiming your bus fare.... Local council elections next month, the party goons will no doubt be hanging around the polling stations, may be an opportune time to canvas their opinions. I for one will be going, if only to say "my dear boy, only the Returning Officer has the right to ask my identity. Now.... How do you stand on the subject of Pimpo ?"

[Mr.P]

I served a SAR on the DWP after finishing with the local drone and made sure the request included data held by the provider - The DWP data appeared to be complete and in chronological order, but not the provider's file. One side of a two page CV, documents that ended mid sentence (clearly running to multiple pages), missing reports that I already had photocopies of. Complete absence of any documents relating to complaints made, let alone any notes of investigation. The whole bundle was a complete shambles !

 

Pointing out the errors and omissions to the DWP data controller only elicited the response "Not my problem, you will have to contact the provider". May be time to file another one and remind the DWP D.C. that he will be held personally liable for any errors or omissions and will be reported to the ICO.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

The complaint to the ASA was mine. The offending words were "a social purpose company". The reprimand from the ASA probably just caused A4e a minor irritation but it was well publicised - appearing in quite a few national papers.

 

How about a few complaints to the Plain English Society ?

They would have a field day with the gibberish put out by these outfits - I certainly made good use of the red pen every time I had the misfortune to be presented with any document

[Mr.P]

One does not use the word "and" to start a sentence, nor should one use semi and full colons with such gay abandon.... On being shown a list of "courses" that I might be interested in, I suggested some of the present staff would benefit more from the "Basic English and Grammar" course.

 

Also offered to provide them with some books entitled "The Complete Idiots Guide to Grammar and Style".

[Mr.P]

Others have indicated that some advisers are "nice" in a face to face situation, yet will stab you in the back when it suits their needs - Never take these people at face value and always treat them with an air of suspicion and caution. Indeed, one I had was all sweet and charming at the first meeting, subsequent meetings were more like a one sided fight in a dragon pit.

 

In answer to your question: The whole industry is based on staff working on short term contracts with impossible targets to hit. As a consequence, turnover is high, and any number could be off pulling stress related sickies. That your (normal) adviser has been absent for three weeks is of little surprise and don't hold out much hope for an early return (if at all).

[Mr.P]

So if such a person helps you, by all means praise them.

 

Agreed - To be fair, I did meet one WP staffer that (on the face of it) showed genuine concern for me. But she was only the receptionist with minimal powers or authority.

[Mr.P]

Basically, if you sign the consent form at the start, Ingeus get money for you if they find you a job or you give your details to them?

 

And at any time you can have your consent removed, resulting in them getting no money for you?

 

Declining to sign a DPA consent form does not deprive a provider of any outcome payments. What it does is limit the freedoms to pass your personal information to any tom-dick-harry outfit they deem appropriate without your consent. For example, the WP provider has this wonderful job opportunity that they want to put you forward for. With the DPA form, they can spin your CV, making wild claims, and email it to [email protected]"][email protected] without your knowledge. Without the consent form, you get to decide who receives a copy of your CV - It has nothing to do with depriving the provider of money but everything about control of your personal data.

 

Outcome payments can be made by the DWP by way of doing "off benefit" checks, so once you sign off, payments start (subject to DWP conditions). Without the DPA consent, the provider has no rights to contact your new employer and ask inconvenient questions (assuming you were daft enough to tell them or the JCP who you were working for).

[Mr.P]

All true BUT "off benefit" does not equate to "in work".

 

Very true. There could be one or more reasons why a claimant is "off benefits":

 

• Employed for more than sixteen hours per week.
  
• In full time education or training.
  
• Left the country (either forced removal or for other reasons)
  
• In prison.
  
• In hospital.
  
• Retired.
  
• Dead.
  
• Won a big one in the lottery.
  

Feel free to add more if you think I've missed anything.

 

Edit: Reading through www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-9.pdf, without employer details, claiming outcome payments does indeed become much more difficult. I suspect there is a process in place should a claimant refuse to disclose the information (such as faking the paperwork)...

Edited April 30, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

Yes, the mere fact they've asked you to come in to their office qualifies you for expenses - the content of the letter and what you have/have not done is totally immaterial. They get special funding for expenses as part of their contract so if they refuse to pay expenses then I would assume they're pocketing it and cheerfully report them for fraud

 

I was thinking mainly along the lines of repeated FoI requests annoying the drones; it should certainly make them watch what they do if they know they're not only going to be checked up on, but checked up on regularly. But as people have said, probably best not to abuse the privilege!

 

O.K. FoI request made regarding number of complaints received and reminders/reprimands issued with regards to refunds of travel expenses. Will see what happens if/when the DWP replies. Follow it at:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/reimbursement_of_expenses_by_wp

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

Let us know when you get an answer that means something.

 

Perusing some of the other FoI requests, I came across this recent entry https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/food_expenses_for_work_programme - Some of you folks might want to print out the reply just in case the provider demonstrates ignorance of the WP contract.

 

Although participants attending provision are entitled to a refund of the travel costs

they incur, as travel expenses are included within the funding received from DWP as part of

the overall contract package, Providers have complete discretion on how they utilise this

funding and are not required to supply meals or reimburse the costs of meals as this is not

included in the funding they receive from DWP.

In other words: Travel expenses are an entitlement to be refunded in full, meals are discretionary.

 

Will update as and when a reply has been received to my FoI request.

[Mr.P]

joeski - If you sign any forms giving permission to pass on personal information after having already withdrawn consent, then the latest form takes precedence. Also, any additional personal information you hand over could/would be viewed as having "implied consent".

 

Best course of action is to read everything, carry a stock of preprinted DPA Consent Withdrawal forms, and when instructed to sign something, hand over one of your preprinted forms. Also see www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/115323/response/308770/attach/2/FoI%201886%2031.08.12.pdf Should ruffle a few feathers

 

Edit: Also, bear this in mind, a quote from another FoI request:

You also asked about the regulations that allow the Department to transfer personal data to

providers such as A4e. Providers are carrying out work on behalf of the Department and in

this situation the Department remains the data controller and the provider acts as the data

processor as defined by the Data Protection Act; therefore there is no breach of the principles

of the Data Protection Act as the Department remains the data controller.

In other words, as long as the DWP has your consent to store/process your personal information, the provider could possibly redistribute data under the guise of being "the data processor". So the JCP would also need to be served with one your preprinted forms.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.... But don't forget, you could use the printer/photocopier at Ingeus to print the forms. If you do it on a day when you've been mandated to attend, you get to claim travel expenses back too.

[Mr.P]

On one occasion, after being kept waiting whilst an adviser did her nails & engaged in idle chitchat with a colleague, I pointed out "You expect me to be on time. Conversely, it is reasonable to expect you to be available at that time". Fortunately, I never had the "well do a job search", but if the suggestion had been made, a suitable response would have been: "The appointment was to see you or a suitably qualified adviser, not to engage in pointless activities that I am quite capable of completing at home."

 

As for your friend, she might like to read some of the FoI responses from the DWP: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?390024-Mandate-by-WP-provider-Guidance-notes

 

Information is power - Use it.

[Mr.P]

They love to blame the unemployed for being unemployed whilst they don't actually do anything useful normally

 

Not just for being unemployed - Complained about an "adviser" that mumbled and appeared to ignore me when ever I sat in front of him... It was determined that it was my fault for not fully engaging in the programme. Also had the "you must be doing something wrong because you are not getting any interviews. Bring in a CV and covering letter so that we can criticise it". That was despite having had two job interviews and one offer of employment (with a confirmed start date) within the previous month.

[Mr.P]

I suspect they will stay until one or more of the following occur:

 

• A change in government - The current programme will be recycled and punted out as something new & radical. See the New Deal -> Flexible new Deal -> Work Programme evolution as an example.
  
• One or more major prime providers go bankrupt or cut their losses and run.
  
• The current contracts run their course and the DWP see no sense in renewing the contracts
  
• A public revolt takes place and the likes of IDS are severely castigated (or should that be castrated).