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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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mancetti vs Lloyds ***WON***


mancetti
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I have been avidly reading all these stories and they all sound like the Loveable Lloyds I have come to know after the last 6 or 7 years.

 

I got to the end of my tether with them this year after paying back an overdraft without any other use of the account (I am now with NatWest), than to pay back the balance, complete with overdraft interest reducing my repayment by half every month. The letter below is one that I sent to them on , to which I received the standard "We've had your complaint" etc...

 

I have just received the standard "Sod Off" letter indicating that I can check my balance with a cash card (which they instructed me to cut up and return 3 years ago) and complete with the statement, "we do everything we can to help our customers avoid charges altogether" and "I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I cannot agree to cancel your charges".

 

I NEED HELP. WHAT DO I DO NOW? ANY ADVICE OR TEMPLATE LETTERS WOULD BE OF GREAT HELP!!

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

LETTER SENT END OF AUGUST

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Account Number: ********** – Sort Code: *******

 

 

I would refer you to my letter dated the 27th of July 2005, which is enclosed. I would refer you again to the fact that I do not recognise you as providing me with a bank account, overdraft or indeed any other service. I would highlight again that your calculations are coupled with ridiculous charges.

 

Therefore, enough is enough.

 

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges, which you have levied from my account over the last four years. The date to which I will commence my claims is the 1st of June 2002, the date that I moved back to ******. You will also note from my attached schedule that I do not have my statements for the months September 2004 to May 2005, for which I omit from my claim; much to your benefit.

 

I now understand that the regime of fees, which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth, are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

 

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner, which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

 

 

For the account, number ******** to be cleared from any balance and closed.

 

I calculate that you have taken £2170.00 plus £631.35, which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum, which you have taken. Total £2801.35. I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter

 

My targets to resolve this matter

 

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

Yours faithfully,

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how many letters have you sent them? Your first one should be the prim letter, you wait 14 days then send the LBA (letter before action ) letter. You will most prob get a responce from them saying a big fat no. Afte you have waiting 14 days (from the day u sent the lba) you need to issue a claim against them. This is done on moneyclaim web site!

 

Also have you sent them a list of charges with the prim and the lba?

 

If you get stuck the read the questions and answers section.

 

Hope this helps....Its confusing the first time round

 

Vic

Letter asking for my money back sent 24/07/06

Letter sent by them saying a big fat "NO" on the 26/07/06

LBA sent via email on the 31/07/06 14 days and counting.

Letter from them on 07/08/06 saying Bugger Off

MONEY CLAIM ISSUED 14/08/06

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sorry spelling/grammer is shocking today

Letter asking for my money back sent 24/07/06

Letter sent by them saying a big fat "NO" on the 26/07/06

LBA sent via email on the 31/07/06 14 days and counting.

Letter from them on 07/08/06 saying Bugger Off

MONEY CLAIM ISSUED 14/08/06

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Mancetti,

 

Welcome to the Lloyds forum!

 

Your next step is the LBA (letter before action), which can be found in the templates library. What you need to do though is have a really good read of the FAQ's and step by step instructions - all your questions will no doubt then be answered.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Thanks Vckyjam and GaryH. No worries on the spelling etc, I'm writing this with abroken hand!!!

 

I've had a long think about this and I've decided to go for broke! I'm gonna send another letter detailing the errors in the letter I've received and asking for a full stateement of account to get a full list of charges...you'll note from my first post that I'm missing about 9 months and started from June 2002.

 

From reading other threads I note that you can get statements from Lloyds providing you request this in wiriting and quote The Data Protection thing.

 

A couple of queries you people out there may be able to help me with:

 

1. How far back can you request the statement of account. I'm thinking September 1997. Is this too far back?

 

2. Would I have to pay Lloyds for the priveledge?

 

3. What sort of letter should I write?

 

I'm not looking for someone to do this for me but any help would be appreciated.

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Hi mancetti,

 

The Subject Access Request is the letter template you need to send them, and you need to include a cheque for £10. As far as I know they should send you statements covering your complete banking history with them (although I didn't do the SAR myself so this is only going on what I've read elswhere). If you want to be sure then I see no problem in you specifying the date you want the statements to start from.

 

Good luck, Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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You will find the answers to all the questions you ask in the FAQ's; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/1-frequently-asked-questions.html and step by step instructions; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/243-step-step-instructions.html

 

The above is absolutely essential reading if you want to reclaim your charges. You need to understand the process and some of the legalities involved before you start - I know its tempting to get stuck straight in to it, but you'll save a hell of a lot of time and/or cock ups if you do your research first.

 

In answer to your questions though;

 

1) Yes, you can request the statements that far back. However, there is a statute of limitation that only allows claims to date back 6 years, so you could only claim the charges back to 2000.

 

2) Yes, there is a statutory £10 fee for a Data Protection Act subject access request.

 

3) No need to write it - there's a SAR template in the templates library, just edit it and print it off. Send it by recorded delivery to Penny Berryman at the address at the top of the Lloyds forum in the stickys.

 

As I said, the FAQ's and S-by-S instructions will answer 99% of your questions, so have a good read and if you still have any quesations after that, by all means ask away. Also, Reloads thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/6182-reload-lloyds-settlement-offered.html is an excellant read for all Lloyds claimants.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Thank you so much for your advice and guidance guys. I'll keep you posted. I'm in for the long haul on this one...the cr@p I've had to deal with from this bank means I'm taking them all the way.

 

i WILL suceed on this!!!!!!!!!!!

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Go for it - it is YOUR money after all!!!

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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  • 4 months later...

Hello all. I'm really sorry for not posting any information about my ongoing Lloyds TSB saga but I've without the computer for a while. Now armed with a new PC, I'll give you the updates and again ask for some advice, from anyone who can offer it.

 

I sent my LBA to Lloyds and as expected was told where to go in no uncertain terms. This was actually the exact same letter they had sent to me before. They hadn't even bothered to change the date when referring to my previous letter, which was actually the one before if that makes sense?

 

Anyway, money claim was filed and fees of £120 paid.

 

I've now received the acknowledgement of service and their defence (if you can call it that....it's word for word the same as Reload's without the reference to the Supply of Goods Act bit at the end)

 

Reading the Andy Ross v Lloyds - ** WON UNCONDITIONALLY ** thread, I'm now confident with a little patience, I'll get there...and the money back!!

 

However, I've come to a stage I'm not sure about....

 

Firstly, I've been asked to submit my Allocation Questionaire to my local County Court but with the court fees of £100?? Do I have to pay this again even after my £120 payment to MCOL?

 

Secondly, can anyone point me in the right direction as to how to complete the AQ and what to submit with it? I've read some threads but still a little unsure.

 

Any help, again, greatly appreciated...

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Hi Mancetti, welcome back!

 

I'm afraid you do have to pay a £100 fee with your AQ if your claim is over £1500. You'll get it back upon settlement though.

 

Heres the new strategy for the AQ - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/57707-draft-order-allocation-questionnaires.html#post441555

And heres the guide notes - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/11644-allocation-questionnaires-guide-completion.html

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Okay...I think I'm understanding all of this.

 

I take it that I need to complete the AQ and in the other information state that I state that I wish to add the standard disclosure order and mark this as see attached. Then copy the order to be attached to the AQ??

 

Do I have to submit all the documents I wish to rely on with the AQ i.e. statements, letters etc? Or is this something I would then send to all parties when the AQ has been submitted and the date set?

 

Lastly, what is the difference between the 'Service Charge' Statement and the 'Genuine Pre-Estimate' statement? I'm getting a little confused, particularly with all the legalise....I'm simply claiming back bank charges and interest, so do I go for the latter?

 

Getting confused by it all now but I want to submit the AQ on Friday with the fees, when I get paid.

 

Does the completed AQ get submitted first with the disclosure request and then take it from there?

 

HELP!:confused:

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I take it that I need to complete the AQ and in the other information state that I state that I wish to add the standard disclosure order and mark this as see attached. Then copy the order to be attached to the AQ??

Yes. complete the AQ as normal and attach the draft order.

 

Do I have to submit all the documents I wish to rely on with the AQ i.e. statements, letters etc? Or is this something I would then send to all parties when the AQ has been submitted and the date set?

No to the first part, yes to the second!

 

Lastly, what is the difference between the 'Service Charge' Statement and the 'Genuine Pre-Estimate' statement? I'm getting a little confused, particularly with all the legalise....I'm simply claiming back bank charges and interest, so do I go for the latter?

Which statement you use depends on the basis upoin which the bank are defending your claim. Lloyds say their charges are a service charge, so you use the service charge statement. Remember though that the statement of evidence is not to be submitted with the AQ, but when the judge directs you to submit your evidence.

 

Does the completed AQ get submitted first with the disclosure request and then take it from there?

Yes :)

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Attach it on a seperate sheet.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What's been happening to date...

 

Last Friday I went and handed in my AQ with the Draft Order for Directions. I also paid my £100 fee.

 

Then I posted Recorded Delivery a copy of the AQ to the Solicitors for Lloyds with a covering letter, asking for a copy of their AQ. I checked on Tuesday via the Royal Mail tracking and it's been received.

 

Just hold on now I suppose for the Court's or their response...I'm getting quite excited about this.

 

Keep ya's posted...:)

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I was going through my paperwork last night and I've got the fear that I've messed up somehow.

 

I submitted my AQ with the Draft Order on the 25 January. I've heard nothing from the Court or SCM since then.

 

According to my own Draft Order, documents should have been submitted after 14 days to both parties....should I have done this already??!! Or am I worrying unnecessarily because these are submitted to both parties after direction from the Court???? :eek:

 

Have I screwed this up???!!! I'm really worried now.....HELP!

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Don't panic!

 

You've only proposed the directions at this stage - you only have to submit the documents if/when the court actually orders them.

 

You'll receive directions and a court date within a few weeks and need do nothing else at this stage untill you do.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, I got the Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track through...the date to submit the documents to each party, that I intend to rely on need to be served by the 12 March 2007.

The court date set for the hearing is for the 8 May 2007.

Not heard anything from the Solicitors yet, defence-wise but hey, surprise, surprise...

I'm going to get my documents together this week/weekend to send off to the court and SCM (recorded delivery of course)...pretty confident I know everything I need to send to them though.

Thought I'd keep my thread updated.

As always, if anyone wants to make sure I've covered everything, remind me what not to forget.....better to be safe than sorry!

Updates will follow.... :)

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Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Yet again Gary, your response is immediate and extremely helpful...you're a diamond :)

 

The basic Court Bundle does seem quite lengthy...I understand that my own documents, statements, letters and schedules are necessary. Being a novice, the legalise seems extensive....should I still print it all out, the web pages from the links being separate?

 

I've read through it all and a lot of it is gibberish to me? Any comments?

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