help im going to court

[andyhappymc]

hi there im new here i have a problem and would be greatful for you advice/comments.

i traveld on a train last year for a weekend away with friends one of of them bought all tickets online. the trip cosisted of one train to the destiation and two trains home. we had all tickets witch the friend who bought them kept for all of us. on the way home on the second train the inspetor came on the train and asked to see are tickets. somehow the ticket for the train we were traveling on were lost BUT we had the recipet for the whole set of tickets for ar trip. the inspector didnt care about this and tryed to charg us for the ticket. we told him we would not pay twice for the tickets. so he had the police wating for us at are stop. when we exited the train the police came and assest the situation. when we showed them are evidence they could tell that we were traveling ligitametly BUT the inspector insisted we have a ticket. so we give the inspector are details and were giving a fine ticket. i was the only one of my friend to appel but incerdently missed the appel date. now i am summons to court. 'none of my friends have had any further action aginst them' . which make me think im being pusude because i tryed to do things the 'right way'. the way i see this is (this man cares well get money out of hin)= me (these dont give a s**t no point in chaseing the they wont pay)= friends .

The point is i payed and have the rciptes to prove it and the costs to travel to court will be big.

what do you's think thanks

[Stigy]

I think I understand what you're saying, but reading that was quite challenging! Basically you couldn't produce the ticket for the journey you were making, only the receipt. This, as strange as it may seem, is not actually travellingt legitimately, as only the tickets themselves are valid for travel, and not the receipts (who's to say somebody else wasn't using the tickets and you were trying to pull a fast one? Bear in mind the RPI didn't know you from Adam!). If it was the British Transport Police who met the train, they should know this. Local forces on the other hand...

 

The fact that you have been summonsed to Court, wont be because you dared to appeal the Penalty Fare, but because you let the deadline lapse, and failed to pay the amount on the notice. If this is not the case, it would appear there has been an admin error somewhere along the line! Bear in mind that if you appeal and it is rejected, the amount is obviously still payable. You will have had time after the dealine to make payment, although this might have been raised slightly due to additional admin costs etc.

 

Unfortunatley for you, the RPI was correct in his/her actions, even if it does seem rather harsh.

[andyhappymc]

thanks for your input. so basically im being fined for losing my ticket that i paid for and can prove i payed for. makes sence i guess lol. dose common sence not mean anything any more.

[Stigy]

thanks for your input. so basically im being fined for losing my ticket that i paid for and can prove i payed for. makes sence i guess lol. dose common sence not mean anything any more.

You were Penalty Fared, not Fined. You'll only be fined if found guilty at Court. You can prove that you paid for a ticket (if paid for by card), but you can't prove that you initially had the ticket. You could have given it to somebody else to use, and be trying your luck. Remember, the staff don't know you. By not being able to produce your rail ticket, you have committed a Byelaw offence (18.2). I suggest you call the Train company, assuming you've already received paperwork, and try and sort the situation out. The Penalty Fare Notice was your initial opportunity to keep the matter out of Court. Was it actually a PFN as opposed to an Unpaid Fare Notice? (just the cost of the full single fare and not a penalty).

[andyhappymc]

what your saying seams correct. so going to court would be a bad thing for me. but its so frustrating having to pay twice. but what do you think about my friends who have got away scot free. this sends a message to me that next time this may happen is to do nothing

[Stigy]

what your saying seams correct. so going to court would be a bad thing for me. but its so frustrating having to pay twice. but what do you think about my friends who have got away scot free. this sends a message to me that next time this may happen is to do nothing

I would imagine your friends were dealt with in the same way initially, but they paid their PF/UFN. Even if the appealed and this was rejected, as long as they paid the amount due, there'd be no further action.

[andyhappymc]

they have not payed a penny or appeled

[Stigy]

they have not payed a penny or appeled

I'm a little confused by the ticket type here. Were you all on one ticket? Or could you all not find your tickets? If they had committed the same offence, and were dealt with in the same way as you at the time, they'll more than likely hear something from the TOC soon.

[andyhappymc]

we all had seperate tickets kept buy one person. sine my appele i have had a few letters fromthe train com no one else has. like i said. they seen that i cear and charge me because thers a high propibility i will pay due to the fact that i appeld and showed them intrest. my friends did noting and have not had noting but the first letter we all recived. at this minute in time i wish i had done the same

ps

i am still thankful for you input and my wighting may be bad because im dislexic if thats how you spell it ha ha

[Stigy]

we all had seperate tickets kept buy one person. sine my appele i have had a few letters fromthe train com no one else has. like i said. they seen that i cear and charge me because thers a high propibility i will pay due to the fact that i appeld and showed them intrest. my friends did noting and have not had noting but the first letter we all recived. at this minute in time i wish i had done the same

ps

i am still thankful for you input and my wighting may be bad because im dislexic if thats how you spell it ha ha

What correspondence have you received and from whom? If it is a summons for a Magistrate's Court, then it's obviously gone to about as far as it'll ever go. If it's demands for the Penalty Fare to be paid, with extra charges added for late payment, then there's still a chance it wont go to court, as long as you pay the amount due. I don't know why your friends haven't received anything through the post. Did they give correct names and addresses?

[Old-CodJA]

Stigy is spot-on. In general rail staff don't know who you are or anything about you or your friends.

 

That means that in accordance with the Railway Byelaws, the only evidence that you have paid your fare, which they are obliged to accept is a valid rail ticket.

 

A receipt is not acceptable as a ticket for the reasons set out by Stigy. It could be that two people are travelling and only one ticket has been purchased and for that reason a receipt cannot be accepted as valid for travel.

 

If you fail to show a valid ticket on demand when facilities were available to get one before travelling, they can report an offence of being in breach of National Railway Byelaw 18.2

 

Many people think that if they ignore a penalty notice or unpaid fare notice it will go away. That rarely happens.

 

If an appeal is made and is unsuccessful, the liability still remains and can end up in prosecution.

 

Some people will give a false name and / or address. Obviously, some people might get away with it. It is an extremely dangerous practice however, because in this day and age, checking identity is very much simpler than in the past and added to that, CCTV covers all stations and a great many trains

 

If you fail to pay or appeal successfully on these notices, the matter may go to prosecution of an allegation of a Byelaw offence. The penalty if convicted is a fine.

 

The traveller who tries it on by giving a false name, or address or both, runs a much greater risk when caught out, because that isn't a Byelaw matter. The traveller that gives false detail will normally be charged with intentional fare evasion and on conviction, the maximum penalty available to a Court then is a fine and / or a term of imprisonment.

 

It will be interesting to see what the charge on the Summons actually is.

 

Have you been charged with the Byelaw offence or does the Summons state a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ?

 

.

[andyhappymc]

its the byelaw charge. ive just noticed somthing. in the court summons it says that the affenced was no show of ticket for the jorney from newcastle to glasgow. i never made this jorney i traveld from glasgow to newcastle. will this get the case kicked out of court

[Wriggler7]

Without reading the charge, I don't know. Most of these charges will use phrases like 'whilst travelling by train between', which does not indicate the direction of travel, merely the location.

[Old-CodJA]

From experience I've never known that one to get thrown out. It shouldn't happen, but very occasionally it does.

 

As Wriggler7 says, frequently the charge will read 'when travelling on a train between ...... stations

 

If I were the prosecutor and this example were challenged, I would immediately apologise to the Court and the Defendant and explain that: "This is indeed an error for which we apologise. The alleged journey as reported was in fact between these two points, but the station names have been typed in the wrong order, I am sorry that had not been spotted earlier and I ask if the Court will permit the Summons to be amended to reflect the correct journey, which I believe is not disputed?"

 

It has happened to me twice over the years and on both occasions the Court, having referred to the defendant, were happy to amend.

 

On the other hand, although in my opinion it isn't likely, you never know. You might be lucky, you might get a Court that say 'No' the information is innaccurate.

 

.

[andyhappymc]

it says (from newcastle) (to glasgow) not between or any thing like that. i was thinking the court might think if they got this information worng what else could be worng. also a friend told me you get travel expences win or lose is this true? thank guys

[andyhappymc]

also the photocopy of the ticket say the same.

the ticket officer worte it out worng at the time

[Wriggler7]

You will not get travel expenses if you lose. I doubt that you would get expenses at a 'first hearing', as the paperwork makes it clear that you could have dealt with the case by correspondence at that point. If, after a 'not guilty' plea has been entered, the railway ask for a trial, and you are found not guilty, you might get travel costs from 'central funds'.

 

If I were defending the case, I would suggest that if they can get one fact wrong, they could get other facts wrong. However, The railway only need to prove that whilst you were travelling by train, you failed to show a ticket.

 

If I were prosecuting this case, I am afraid if I thought the case was getting away from me, I would make reference to how confused the inspector was when trying to make sense of what the passenger was saying, but he did get the date right, the fact that this happened 'on a train' or 'at a railway station', and that the ticket was 'not shown' or 'not right'.

 

One of the early things that an advocate will do is look at 'flaws' in the paperwork. He will be looking for a weakness to exploit. I do not wish to be uncharitable or unkind, but your posts, and therefore probably any correspondence which you have sent to the railway, show a weakness. In Court, with great charm and tact, I would draw out that weakness. When you tell the Court that 'if they can get that wrong, they could have got other things wrong', I would agree with you, and then come back with 'but, you were on a train.'

 

As Old Codja indicates, a summons can be amended, or if push comes to shove, withdrawn and a correct one issued.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, as Wriggler7 says, all the company need do is prove to the satisfaction of the Court that you were on a train without a ticket and if you are charged with the Byelaw offence, that will read 'failed to show a valid ticket when asked to do so' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.2 (2005) or similar wording. It's that 'fail to show' bit that is the actual offence.

 

I don't know how soon your hearing date is, but if that is how you've been charged, I believe that the best suggestion that I can make is that you make a further effort to get them to settle the matter without continuing the Court action.

 

Make it easier for them to settle and get their costs back by apologising and offering to pay the fare and their costs to avoid Court action.

[andyhappymc]

i dont want to settel i have all ready paid for my ticket!. it will proberly cost more to travel to court than to settel but its a matter of princerple. also will they bring my appele letter to court because i sent in my tickets in with it. i also had the ticket for the train i was traveling on but not the train befor hand as my friend put the tickets from the privious journy in the bin as he thought we didnt need them anymore but the inspector told us we needed two tickets. in total i had 3 tickets 1 toget ther and 2 to get back. this is on the recipt