Cabot - Halifax Credit Card - Cabot now started Court Action - Help Please ***SETTLED***

[caro]

Simple is good lamb. The courts are fed up with people submitting fancy legalese defences that they don't fully understand. Judges time is very limited so as long as you include all you need it's best to keep it simple, in your own words, and relevant to what happened to you, they are more likely to be sympathetic to you - if it goes further.

 

The courts are quite happy to accept reconstituted agreements these days, so unless you truly know nothing about the claim you're best to be avoid these arguments, but certainly you need evidence that you owe anything to cabot IMO.

[caro]

A recon CCA would be accepted.

[caro]

It was hit and miss in my day.

 

I think Cabot will have difficulty with the default notice & assignment, that's why I didn't go for proof in my first suggestion. I would want to see what they had. Do Claimants comply with CPR requests nowadays?

Since the Carey case which I think was December 2009 the courts seem to invariably accept reconstituted agreements, and as they don't keep DNs I believe that the courts will also accept witness statements re DNs etc. If they believe you've borrowed the money they don't seem too worried about dotting the i's and crossing the t's. If there was no DN or a faulty DN then it is very easy for this to be put right, and a court will adjourn a case to allow this to happen.

 

I think the big question here would be is the money owed to Cabot.

 

If a CPR request is submitted I believe they should respond but it won't necessarily provide all you want. No harm in trying though and will show the defendant is actively trying to resolve the situation.

Edited May 15, 2011 by caro

[caro]

I feel that I should advise you that filing a 'simple' defence, may end up costing you as much as £3k in extra costs if the claimant succeeds with his claim against you. Said defence is often referred to as an 'embarrassed defence'.

 

I beg to differ with you on this one Mould. An embarassed defence is when you claim that you are embarassed by the POC. Simply to say you need the original agreement etc is not enough.

 

By a simple defence I mean a defence in the LIPs own words without worrying about legal parlance. I see no reason why this should result in costs.

 

It has been well established that an embarassed defence is rarely appropriate unless you have absolutely no idea what the claim is about, which is not the case here I believe.

Edited May 16, 2011 by caro

[caro]

Hello Lamb

 

As stated previously, wait and see if the claimant responds to said CPR request for disclosure.

 

You have said that you sent said request by special delivery, check the date he received it, then he has 7 days from date of receipt of the same in order to supply you with copies of documents you have requested.

 

I feel that I should advise you that filing a 'simple' defence, may end up costing you as much as £3k in extra costs if the claimant succeeds with his claim against you. Said defence is often referred to as an 'embarrassed defence'.

 

The template draft defence example that I posted on Pg7 post #127 is how you need to lay your defence out, forget the contents of said example, but copy the format thereof.

 

Do not worry about legal parlance, simply write your defence (when the time comes) in good old plain, clear and concise English, just as you do here.

 

Try and see if you can find those statutory notices in your own records, if you don't have the original, then put the claimant to strict proof on service of the same.

 

When did the claimant receive your CPR request?

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

 

Oh dear I was confused by your post Mould. I thought you were saying post 127 was a suggested defence, but having wasted time going through the confusing contents in it I realise all you're saying is that is the way you consider it should be laid out. I'm used to templates just being the bare bones of a document.

 

Right Lamb to business.

 

Can you please post a list of bullet points of what's happened (including dates) that have led to this.

 

Also, realistically, what would be the best outcome of this for you?

[caro]

Okay thanks.

 

You say that you're paying other creditors £1 a month. Are you in a DMP?

[caro]

Thanks for the info lamb.

 

I'm trying to get some better informed advice than I can offer for you. Have you told Cabot that you can't afford anything? I'm just a bit concerned that your arguments are all based on technicalities which we've seen aren't overly successful, so trying to think outside the box a bit.

 

How do you feel about sending a budget sheet to show that you can't afford to pay anything back, or at least no more than £1 a month? I'm just thinking that you might be able to get them to withdraw the claim if you can reach an agreement with them.

 

It is possible to do a DMP yourself, and if you show that you are doing this and other creditors are accepting reduced payments, they might be hard pressed not to do the same. If they do decide to carry on to court it can't harm your case to show that you have are actively trying to resolve the problem. You've obviously been doing this anyway, even if you haven't called it a DMP.

 

Sequenci has done some good blogs on debt management plans which I would recommend you read, and there's also a good thread here.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?289118-At-the-end-of-your-tether-an-alternative-debt-management-strategy&p=3247226&viewfull=1

 

If you don't think this is for you then fair enough, but I just think it might help you and take the pressure off.

[caro]

No problem Lamb, and I understand where you're coming from. Sometimes people can get caught up in a sort of rollercoaster that it can be hard to see a way off it. Whatever you decide you have my support for what it's worth.

 

Mould has mentioned the Harrison v Link case, and in no small part that case was to do with harassment, which may well be useful for your defence.

 

The reconstructed agreement problem arose due to the McGuffick v RBS andCarey v HSBC cases, so if you aren't familiar with that case you need to be. There's a discussion on it linked below http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?240186-Dissecting-the-Manchester-Test-Case

 

Frankly I don't think arguments about DNs are much use, although if there is the argument about if the debt is terminated and you need to pay the full amount or if it's just the arrears. Not sure that really makes a difference because at the end of the day the amount is the same and you still have a CCJ. The good thing about that is that unless you own your own property and later go for a charging order there's not a lot else they can do once you've been to court as long as you pay the amount the judge says.

 

Are there likely to be charges or PPI included in the amount being claimed?

[caro]

If your letter wasn't clear I would say they should have 7 days from receiving it.

[caro]

I just mean if you didn't say 7 days from the date of this letter, or date of postmark or whatever. 7 days from receipt of letter seems reasonable to give the benefit of any doubt.

[caro]

This is outside my comfort zone but just found this. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?261832-Judge-not-impressed-with-CPR-breaches-by-Cabot-and-others&p=2955146&viewfull=1#post2955146

[caro]

Case was struck out and costs paid. Hadituptohere-V-Cabot-**-CASE-STRUCK-OUT**COSTS-PAID

[caro]

See Shadow's post 208 above lamb.

 

For info, there is a suggestion that the info in this thread should be used in any case involving Cabot. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?120057-Cabot-Test-Case!&highlight

[caro]

Make sure that the court know about this. You need it in writing from them that they agree to the extra time, but the court need to know it too. It wouldn't be the first time that such an agreement was made verbally, the court not told, and the claimant gets summary judgment because no defence has been submitted.

 

The point of the thread I linked is that at least some Cabot debts were assigned to them in the Irish Republic, which of course doesn't come under UK law, so they have no right to pursue debts. 42man provided the link for me and said:-

 

This is the Cabot test case about the offshore assignment - (most of the debts were originally with MBNA). It is an issue that really should be mentioned in any Cabot court case....

 

I have no idea if this applies in your case but it may be worth you looking into it.

[caro]

Send in the SAR anyway, because the info from the CPR should have everything for your defence. I believe the 28 day extension is on top of the 28 days you already have, but as Shadow says, check with the court and make sure that you have everything in writing and that the court do too.

[caro]

Email Cabot back and ask them when you can expect them to comply with your request, as the time has already passed and you need them in good time to deal with your defence.

[caro]

As Caro has stated, you need the info from Cabot to defend the claim, pointless them extending like this... what they need to say is they'll give you 28 days from when they have complied with the information request previously sent.

 

S.

 

If the extension is in order to get documents and they aren't forthcoming before the deadline, would it be appropriate to apply for a strike out of the claim Shadow?

[caro]

Don't try to be something you aren't lamb. You are a litigant in person and all you have to do is put it in your own words what's happened to you. Once the words are in place it can be tidied up with paragraphs numbered, statement of truth etc,

 

In fact I would say it will be better for you to keep it simple so that you are comfortable that you are clear on your own arguments and can handle any questions that might come your way in court - if it gets that far.

[caro]

Looks like I was a bit slow posting there brigadier, but the message is the same.

[caro]

If you don't understand it, don't use it lamb. IMO that's where a lot of people have gone wrong. Many hearings are only a few minutes and judges don't want to spend hours reading - in fact as brigadier says - they probably don't, so just stick to what you know and keep it simple. The judge will have more respect for you if he sees you're genuine and not being an "armchair lawyer".

[caro]

This is how I have started, but there are bits I dont know how to finish off

 

In the Northampton county court.................... ......................... ......................... .................Claim No:

Between:

 

 

Cabot Financial (UK) Limited

 

 

And

 

 

Lamb

 

 

I, Lamb, age 21 of 33 of 33 Debt Street, DCATown, CRAP BOT am the Defendant in these proceedings and I make this statement in defence to the claim

 

 

The Defendant denies that there has been any failure to make payment in accordance with the alleged contract. The Claimant has failed to produce a copy of a credit agreement in the requisite timescale at all

 

Without Disclosure of the relevant documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to assess if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Claimant has failed to issue a valid Default Notice as required under s. 87 Consumer Credit Act 1974 thus making any termination of the agreement unlawful.

 

The Claimant has failed to issue a Notice of Assignment and therefore is unable to prove that

the Claimant has any right to bring this claim or indeed that the alleged debt has been assigned to the Claimant.

 

The Claimant has not provided a Statement of Truth to the Defendant stating that this reconstructed agreement is a certified and true copy of the original therefore the Defendant is unable not sure how to end this

 

The Claimant has not provided a Notice Of Termination not sure how to end this

 

The Claimant has informed me in writing that The Claimant will not correspond with me further in this matter thus not sure how to word the end of this

 

 

Is there anything else I should be adding to this?

 

You can't really do much until/unless you get the documents you need, then you can deal with it.

[caro]

Lamb, CAG is here for everyone and that includes you and me.

 

You could add that you had a breakdown to your defence and that this has made dealing with your financial affairs more diffiicult. If being chased for this debt made things worse you should mention that, especially if you have been harassed, as happened in the Harrison v Link case. In no small part this was why he won his case.

 

I have to agree with Shadow's idea. It will be much less stressful for you to try and negotiate a settlement, and there is no shame in doing so. There's a budget sheet here that might help you.Budget Sheet.xls

Edited June 7, 2011 by caro

[caro]

Sorry again, Im gonna try and reclaim the PPI as had exisiting conditions before I took it, think its only a couple of 100 pound though, do I do this through OC or Cabot and if so will they knock it off debt, I hope not. The cahrges were £12 and as I understand it that was considered fair and therefore unclaimable, am I correct

 

Card charges are claimable, so if you are looking to mediate this could be a bargaining point. Don't forget about the interest on PPI and charges too. It all helps to bring down what you allegedly owe. If you decide to defend you can include these in your defence.

[caro]

A friend of mine has found mediation to be very effective too.

[caro]

The I&E and the doctors letter seem fair enough to me, but I agree that it does look like they still want the CCJ. You need to remind them that without the information that you have requested you cannot respond to their court claim. It will be up to the judge to decide if £1 a month is all they should get based on your I&E.