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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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RBS Mint Loan - Court Action Started & Dodgy DN issues


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prospective maybe the key word re S57?? rather than executed

 

and it WAS a credit agreement, it was an HP agreement under the CCA and I think you will find they got to keep the copier ....

 

And no-one has answered my question for the OP

 

How and when did teh creditor become entitled to sums not yet due?

 

I will still keep coming back to this as this point is the 'point' of this thread

 

Hi wellno actually the key word is "made" According to Goode an agreement is made when some action is taken on it following execution

This would be the forwarding of the credit.

 

The act would hardley say that iether party could wthdraw before it was executed,that is a bit obvious.

 

Really kept the coppier didnt see that in the transcript.

 

Any way the point is that as a hire agreement,when the arrears where paid there were no further liabilities under the agreementThe hire would be up to date and no further action could be taken.

In a credit agreement the liabilities unde the agreement remin they are not writen off.The only reason they are in a hire agreement is ecause they are losses not liabilies.

 

If you default a credit agreement and the default is defective the liabilities are still due.

 

Peter

 

P

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You cant kill something twice, once its a dead parrot it's dead, terminated, shuffled its mortal coil etc.

 

The claimant killed it. If anyone tries to effect further death on it they are bound to fail.

 

Its not me who is complicating it.

 

My point is very simple, and I believe supported by the judge in Harrison v Link.

 

If the DN is bad, the claimant has no rights under the CCA.

 

What part of that is:

 

a) incorrect

 

b) complicated

 

Vdr

 

Doesnt need any rights under the CCA, the CCA does not stop the court from enforcing after the voluntary terniat8ion of a debtor .

A default notice is only required if the creditor seeks to terminate on"breach of the debtor".This seems to be the view of the DJ also,

 

Peter

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A default notice is only required if the creditor seeks to terminate on"breach of the debtor".This seems to be the view of the DJ also,

 

Peter

 

And is that not was relied on to bring proceedings in the first place?

 

And the DN was defective.

 

And the claimant lost their rights under the CCA.

 

Therefore anything after that is meaningless.

 

We need to get back to what I will call (probably wrongly) the cause of action - where did it start going wrong, and wind back to that, and address it.

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And is that not was relied on to bring proceedings in the first place?

 

And the DN was defective.

 

And the claimant lost their rights under the CCA.

 

Therefore anything after that is meaningless.

 

We need to get back to what I will call (probably wrongly) the cause of action - where did it start going wrong, and wind back to that, and address it.

 

Thing is i do not believe it was decide wrongly.

 

The DJ admitted that theDN was defective.Really shee needed to do no more.

 

However as said if she decides she is not going to abide by the terms of the agreement the any protection she had under that ageement disapear.

 

I do however think that this was harsh treatment on a lip.

I know when Welshman mentioned this defence the judge tipped him the wink(i believe) that it was suicidal,fortunately he changed his deffence to suit

 

Peter

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Well here we have a clear case of inarticulate drivel.

 

Where are the moderators?

 

If you feel that posts are breaching the forum rules, please report them using the exclamation triangle underneath each post. Site team will review it and act accordingly on each reported post.

 

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And is that not was relied on to bring proceedings in the first place?

 

And the DN was defective.

 

And the claimant lost their rights under the CCA.

 

Therefore anything after that is meaningless.

 

We need to get back to what I will call (probably wrongly) the cause of action - where did it start going wrong, and wind back to that, and address it.

 

Sory idont understand what your reasoning is here.Why do you think by issuing a defective DN the creditor lost his rights uner he CCA he just lost the right to enforce on that occasion didnt he.

 

Anyway as i said earlier it is irrelavant,the CCA does not stop the court from enforcing in this case

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

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Volvo You're probably right. However PH now seems to have posted up everything relevant - so we now actually have a ball to kick instead of just each other.

 

Can I therefore suggest that those who claim to have a lot of knowledge in these matters now study all the material carefully and advise PH on what her options now are, based on what has happened in her case? Let's forget about scoring points based on semantics and focus on helping PH!

 

My own (non-expert) view is that the other side (creditors) deliberately (and unfairly) manoeuvered her into a corner and that, as a lay person, she should be excused for the obvious interchange of the use rescission and repudiation - and should not be put at any unfair disadvantage because of this.

 

To my simple mind if you are invited to end an agreement - i.e. "call it quits" then that is what exactly what it means - "stop it here and now and nothing more to be asked for or given by either party".

 

Even if the creditor IS entitled to repayment of the principal in full PLUS interest "already earned" then it is a moot point as to what has already been "earned" as the interest rate charged was based on a 7 year agreement and not the truncated (3 year?) term imposed by the creditors. I raised a point in a post yesterday (which seems to have disappeared?) that it is not fair to charge the same (higher) interest rate on a SHORT TERM loan as charged on a LONG TERM Loan.

 

Look at the mortgage deals available now - much higher for 5 or 7 year fixed rate deals than for 2-3 year fixed rate deals. I believe it could be argued PH would not have agreed to the higher rate on the shorter term loan - and in that respect the Creditor has been unfairly advantaged whereas the failure to produce a valid DN should have had the opposite effect according to Francis Bennion's intentions.

 

I agree it would be far better if she were professionally represented in any appeal - and hopefully the recent ruling against Link in Wales may help her case now?

 

BD

 

BTW - does anyone know when the Brandon appeal is likely to be heard 9and ruled upon)?

 

rather than concentrate on what the other side did ( or did not do) i would concentrate on what the judge did (or did not) do- misdirect him/herself would be a good start

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so those of mine that were removed can be put back?

 

do we get to spank the mods bums when they transgress?

 

LOL

 

Posts moderated aren't restored by the site team - any 'complaints' about how moderation is completed should be reported to site admin (admin @ consumeractiongroup.co.uk - remove the spaces, inserted by the forum software to remove spam attacks) who will review the situation and take appropriate action. Site admin may restore your posts if they don't agree with the moderation that has taken place. Similarly, they may agree with it and not restore them - that's more likely, as the mods work as a team and don't (generally) remove posts unnecessarily, contrary to popular beliefs. (We actually have better things to do, like discussing who has the key to the tea cupboard in the staff canteen or something)

 

good, this place is like the dentists and the morgue

 

if you dont have a laugh now and then youll go round the twist!:lol:

 

Indeed, or further around it for those numbers between us that are already there.

 

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Posts moderated aren't restored by the site team - any 'complaints' about how moderation is completed should be reported to site admin (admin @ consumeractiongroup.co.uk - remove the spaces, inserted by the forum software to remove spam attacks) who will review the situation and take appropriate action. Site admin may restore your posts if they don't agree with the moderation that has taken place. Similarly, they may agree with it and not restore them - that's more likely, as the mods work as a team and don't (generally) remove posts unnecessarily, contrary to popular beliefs. (We actually have better things to do, like discussing who has the key to the tea cupboard in the staff canteen or something)

 

 

 

Indeed, or further around it for those numbers between us that are already there.

 

:lol:

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Posts moderated aren't restored by the site team - any 'complaints' about how moderation is completed should be reported to site admin (admin @ consumeractiongroup.co.uk - remove the spaces, inserted by the forum software to remove spam attacks) who will review the situation and take appropriate action. Site admin may restore your posts if they don't agree with the moderation that has taken place. Similarly, they may agree with it and not restore them - that's more likely, as the mods work as a team and don't (generally) remove posts unnecessarily, contrary to popular beliefs. (We actually have better things to do, like discussing who has the key to the tea cupboard in the staff canteen or something)

 

 

 

Indeed, or further around it for those numbers between us that are already there.

 

Fair enough - but I don't see why the scary dominatrix picture was taken down. Can Site admin put it back up PLEASE??

 

BD

 

PS - Only to remind us not to be naughty again - honest!

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rather than concentrate on what the other side did ( or did not do) i would concentrate on what the judge did (or did not) do- misdirect him/herself would be a good start

 

DD

 

I don't disagree that the judge was daft - but surely it's also quite valid to question how the creditor, by not doing things properly in the first place, managed to get PH to accept the termination (if that's actually what she did) and comes out of this smelling of roses? It actually reminds me of some "battles" on CAG where the "respondent" gets more hammered than the perpitrator (Joke - mods - honest!) :-)

 

I also think there is a valid argument to challenge the interest deemed as "due" since common practice is to charge lower rates on shorter term loans - if all else fails.

 

BD

 

PS - I nearly wasn't going to reply to you as my Mum told me not to talk to boys who use naughty words like "bum" - even (especially?) when coupled with "spanked".

 

PPS - If that scary dominatrix picture was still up I wouldn't dare have said that!

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On the thread you have the POC, initial defence

PH's app for SO

Claimant's app to amend POC last minute before PH's app

 

Amended POC and amended Defence

 

Both side's skellys

Both sides WS

 

summary of trial hearing

 

---

 

As I have said before, the arguments put forward by members of the site are actually better than those relied upon by the Claimant IMHO.

Read the Skelly again and see exactly what teh Claimant's said rather than what you think they should have been arguing.

 

The one bit of info that we need would be at least a transcript of teh Judgement (better for whole trial) as it is only then anyone would be able to assess exactly how the DJ came to their thinking.

 

PH has already been given leave to appeal (by the sounds of what she was told in Court by the DJ)

 

I am also interested on what grounds the DJ awarded costs against PH in a SCT trial.

PH's argument at trial was not new and she received positive 'vibes' from the DJ at the application hearing

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you are more likely to get an appeal if it can be shown that the judge misdirected

 

the problem with what the creditor did is that those arguments should have been used from the off

 

If PH didn't accept they were going to apply to stay proceedings and issue a new compliant DN

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I also think that there may be some useful info in the original Woodchester v Swain hearing. The one where the DJ ordered Swain to pay £13k (i.e. full rights as in PH's case) which was then overturned at appeal down to lawful arrears at termination (which was taken to be date of issue of the DN interestingly).

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Originally posted by Diddydicky ..... is stated that either party can terminate the agreement under a separate clause in the agreement (has anyone BTW checked this agreement for that clause- it aint in all of them)
I've looked at the agreement again. It says that I have a right to settle at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off the amount I owe under the agreement which may be reduced by a rebate. It also says that the Creditor if:

 

  • I fail to make an instalment repayment within one month of its due date, or
  • I provide inaccurate information
  • I die/become insolvent etc

then we shall become entitled after the expire of proper notice to demand immediate payment of the loan plus interest and charges on default less (on payment any applicable rebate).

 

There is nothing on the agreement specifically about my rights to terminate the agreement which I think is odd given that it was an agreement discussed over the phone and had to have been subject to the distance marketing regs. Why didn't I get a cooling off period for example?

 

There is nothing in the agreement that says the Creditor can terminate at any time without one of the exceptions I've listed above occuring.

 

I am very grateful for your pledges of funding and for all your interest and support. I have decided to get a copy of the Judgement.

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i accept your summing up of the position of the parties vis termination

 

however- it is clear from the claimants letter that she accepted the creditors first action which was termination

 

the creditor therefore was NOT entitled to payment of sums not yet due as it was the creditor NOT the debtor that terminated

 

you can argue till the cows come home that the creditor did not ACTUALLY terminate- because of a techicality- (the invalid DN)- and you would be right BUT.... i say again- if the creditor- with all their legal knowledge was unaware that thei termination was not valid, how in gods name was the debtor supposed to know?

 

the debtor was clearly misled by the creditors termination and clearly made a transactional decision ( to accept the creditors termination and all that goes with it) which she may well otherwise not have made had she not been misled by the creditor

 

 

 

There are strong grounds for appeal here

 

how far adrift of OFT guidelines does the creditor have to go!

 

Dont really uderstand why you think the creditor was not entitled to his money no matter who terminated

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

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GH

 

I know you will be up to speed on this anyway (and it may well have been put more eloquently earlier on this thread) - but please just humour me.....I believe my point is relevant to PH if a bit rambling.....

 

In Woodchester, if the copier was not retained by the Law firm, then arrears would be all that was due - as no further benefit could be gained by the hirer - so why should they pay more in any case? However if it was kept by the Hirer (which I believe it was?) then the fact that Lawful arrears is all that is due is VERY significant - in that the dodgy DN denied the Claimant the right to any further benefits under the contract. Does anyone know what para of what statute it is that states this - and is it definitely applicable to contracts regulated by CCA?

 

I recollect this "lawful arrears only due" was a key thrust in the Pinky69 thread - but had cold water poured on it by some claiming that contracts "could not be unlawfully terminated " by either party - or even both! Also from memory I think this is also what was decided in the Brandon case - which is why the appeal is so important to many.

 

Relevance to PH? If a contact CAN be terminated on the back of a dodgy DN (which was not corrected first) then surely the same "arrears only" logic applies as in Woodchester? Are there any more recent cases dealing with CCA agreements with the same outcome?

 

Surely the key thing is not whether PH accepted their termination or not? Surely it is whether the termination COULD be made in the first place?

 

If it could and it was on the back of a dodgy DN then surely only arrears are now due?

 

If it couldn't be terminated by the creditor unilaterally (due to dodgy DN) then PH couldn't accept subsequently something that wasn't there in the first place?

 

BD

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Dont really uderstand why you think the creditor was not entitled to his money no matter who terminated

 

Peter

 

Because that would mean the creditor would win BOTH ways - either by staying within the rules - or by going outside the rules (without any penalty whatsoever).

 

Two opposites surely cannot have the same effect - WET is not DRY and WRONG is not RIGHT.

 

BD

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Because that would mean the creditor would win BOTH ways - either by staying within the rules - or by going outside the rules (without any penalty whatsoever).

 

Two opposites surely cannot have the same effect - WET is not DRY and WRONG is not RIGHT.

 

BD

 

So the creditor is not entitled to recover his money?

 

And really as said woodchester was a hire agreement the sums due where not actual they were futre earnings from the contract. These could only be claimed after the DN had been effectivley served and the court could then enforce the ageement for losses.

WHen the default was found to be innafective the creditor could not claim them, and when the arrears where paid they where no longer due because the acount was upto date.

THis is a loan agreement even when the arrears are paid the ballance of the liabilities are still there, whether they are paid of as per the contract or paid off immediatly they will have to be paid.

Peter

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in PH's case the contract was NOT terminated 'on the back of a DN faulty or not'

(the creditor could not have relied upon the faulty DN as Harrison has recently confirmed)

 

It was terminated by the creditor of their own free will. They refused to allow PH to repay teh loan as per contract, they withdrew her right to repay over another 3 or so years.

 

That termination was stated as being a fundamental breach of contract by PH

 

That termination was effective - there is no argument about that.

 

The argument is about what rights teh creditor had at the time of their breach of contract (termination). Simple as that.

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