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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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M&S money Credit Card CCA Problems


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All you need do is say that you wish for all communication to be in writing ir order to protect yourself in the event of litigation. Anything they need to say to you is best put in writing in order for there to be no misunderstanding on either side. That in respect of personal security you have no intention of discussing your personal finances over an unsecure telephone with someone you do not know.

 

It is legally acceptable for you to communicate in writing and nowhere does it say they HAVE to phone you, or that you HAVE to respond to them if they do.

 

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For those that have helped me and subbed to this thread, Thank you for your help and information.

 

I have another problem with M&S now and have started another thread, which can be found on the following link.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/m-cards/257093-m-ppi-help-please.html

 

I'll be very greatful if you could take a quick look and see if theres anything that I could do.

 

As always

 

Many Thanks In Advance.

 

E5D

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've had another letter from M&S today.

 

I sent them a letter 2 weeks ago, advising them that in their previous correspondence to me, they over looked S61 (1)(a) in favour of S61 (2) to suit them.

 

They have replied by saying they have consulted with their legal dept, who say the alleged agreement is one document and "legally enforceable".

 

I have attached their letter below. Could anyone impart a piece or two of advice.

 

Thanks in advance

 

EOS-5D

M&S CCA REPLY AGAIN.pdf

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Two things

 

  1. that is the main reason they have a legal dept - to tell them what they want to hear. Its a pretty pointless statement, since the responsibility of their legal dept is to M&S and not to you, its hardly neutral
  2. its interesting that they have admitted in their second paragraph that they dont have the original - they have copied it on to microfiche in order to save space. I read what they say in their letter, but "common" practice (ie this happens elsewhere - is it what happens at M&S? Dunnoe) is to copy the sig part of the agreement but nothing else. So their problem in asserting that the prescribed terms are on the reverse is "prove it". Problem with a copy is that it can always be mucked about with. Some courts are happy enough, but not always.

Then, going back in your thread, is whether their assertion that "the T&Cs are on the back" is adequate. For instance is the front an application form? Does having the T&Cs on the back mean that they are contained (as the should be) or merely embodied. This is covered in BRW's posts on 26/2 - worth another look imo.

Remember the purpose of this letter is to get you to pay up - its not about truth.

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EOS

 

I had a quick look at the agreement. It seems that pages 2-3 are one document containing the prescribed terms and the pages 4-8 are another (page 4 seems to be a repeat of page 5 BTW). It is hard to see which of these page 1 belongs to. Since that is the page with the signature on, to be enforceable, it must belong to one or the other.

 

Perhaps their (independent) legal department could elucidate.

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Thanks for your reply Steven.

 

Are you saying that it looks like the agreement had been executed and therefore enforceable

 

 

Cheers

 

E5D

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the key part of Steven's post is this

" It is hard to see which of these page 1 belongs to" - I would agree and its consistent with Banker's posts at end February about M&S's "sales" strategy in store.

This is something that they (not just M&S) do - send the sig document with a set of T&Cs attached, asserting the latter belongs to the former.

The issue now is that if they want to push this further by taking court action they would have to PROVE that page 1 belongs to 2 and 3. If they cant then prescribed terms are missing and the usual consequences follow. Question for them is whether they want to take the chance of being able to prove that or not.

Couple of supplementaries

 

  1. even if they could prove that 2 and 3 belong with 1, there is still the issue of whether the prescribed terms are contained within the sig document, or merely embodied. If they can show the three pages belong together then I would guess contained, but its another obstacle for them to get over
  2. it nicely illustrates the unwisdom of you taking them to court for an order to declare the account uneforceable, as in that case the onus of proof to show 1 doesnt belong with 2/3 would be on YOU.

So, lacking an original (see their letter) they are going to struggle to show that 1 does belong with 2/3. What they might try is to produce a blank of what you signed with 1-3 as a single document and assert this is what you signed. On the other hand the court might not accept this, seeking an original

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Gang

 

Its me again.

 

Further to writing to our good friends at M&S, pointing out to them the areas where their alleged agreement fails to comply with the CCA 1974 ( as per BRW's post earlier in my thread), I have today received the attached response from them, telling me that the alleged agreement is enforceable and that their normal collection activities will continue.

 

Would someone please have a quick look at their response, as it just looks like a load of waffle to me.

 

Thanking you in advance

 

E5D

M&S RESPONSE 190510A.pdf

M&S RESPONSE 190510B.pdf

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Hello EOS-5D, I see you are currently with Jayne Ellett. Have you had any letters from Graham Officer at all? His name always makes me chuckle.

 

Anyway these letters are just the standard posturing by M&S. They will not admit that they haven't got any legs to stand on, so the only recourse open to you really is to stop paying and bat away the DCAs, as long as you can take the hit on your credit file.

 

I am one year into this process with M&S, and am prepared to wait for six years if need be. I have basically told them to put up and take me to court, so far they appear to be reluctant to do so. I posted the form of words I used on another thread earlier this week. It also had an interesting statement about how internally they have written off all chargecard to credit card conversions (I can't recall if your is one of these?). I will see if I can find it and post a link.

 

I do notice from your posts that you had a default notice with the use of "14 days". That makes it defective, the regulations state that the default notice must contain a date.

 

EOS-5D, here is the link to that thread I referred to above: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/259892-m-money-gothia-now.html.

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Hello EOS-5D!

 

Tell M&S to bog off and stop messing around.

 

s61(1)(b) won't cut the mustard.

 

It's s61(1)(a) that they need to comply with...

 

That being a document that has your Signature and the Prescribed Terms contained within the four corners of the Agreement.

 

The word embody is what gives it away for them, the word they are looking for is contained, and that is nowhere to be seen in s61(1)(b).

 

They can embody anything they like from another document into the Agreement, free fluffy bunnies at Easter, public bank worshipping whenever a month has 32 days in it, you name it, they can embody it into the Agreement...

 

...but that won't make it enforceable!

 

Cheers,

BRW

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you are quite right EOS-5D, "a load of waffle", and as the banker points out, the relevant section of the Act aint 61(b) but 61 (a) which requires your sig and the prescribed terms. They have practically admitted in their last letter (not the most recent, but the one before that) that they dont have this so they are just trying it on.

There is though a wider issue here. How likely is that M&S dont know that what they need to satisfy is s61 (a) and that s61(b) as the banker points out in such an interesting way is a side-show. The problem with this is not just that it is wrong and thus misleading, but that it is deliberately and premeditadedly misleading, which brings it up against the OFT guidlines on debt collection which specifically mentions "leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge" (2.2.b)" as an unfair practice. Perhaps a complaint to OFT might be in order for such assertions in letters from DCAs. A single complaint will make little difference but if we all complain then perhaps we might exert some influence

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As always guys, THANK YOU so much for your feedback.

 

Iain, this wasn't a chargecard conversion and thank you for your posts, i'll take a peak now.

 

I'll prepare yet another letter for them as my return volley in this game of letter ping pong.

 

Mentioning DEFAULT NOTICES, I had the pleasure of receiving a phone call last week from the collections dept (despite withdrawing my permission for them to contact me by phone). In that conversation the lovely lady said that as I am 3 months behind with my payments, M&S will issue a "default notice" any time now. I didnt have the heart to tell her that I already have one of those for my scrap book. But, can they issue as many "default notices" as they like, what is the score there then? because the "default notice" I already have from them says that I have 14 days to pay the balance or they will issue an "account termination notice"

 

Once again, cheers guys and have yourselves a great weekend

 

E5D

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Hi Again

 

Well Ive had my weekly letter from M&S which is attached.

 

This time it's from Pre Legal Recoveries using M&S's address, so it's obviously an in house thing. They are threatening to send an agent to my home address. I know that once they are here they have no more authority than the milky or postie, but still unpleasent I suppose.

 

What concerns me and I wonder how legally they are behaving because it's obviously M&S themselves and not a 3rd party debt collector, so why not just send a letter from M&S collections department? Why pretend they the letter is from someone else? They've even tried to make it look slightly more official by having a tiny little logo of a port cullis.

 

I will send them a very strongly worded letter but is there anything that you guys think I should mention or any points from their letter where they have broken or very close to breaking the law.

 

 

As always, thanks in advance

 

 

E5D

M&S PLR.pdf

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Just another threat imo. Of course there is the possibility that they just might do it, but note the use of "I am planning to ..." - not "I am going to ..."

I would suggest having a read at this http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/590-letter-used-when-a-dca-threatens-a-doorstep-visit- and adapt to your own purposes. Just i case have a read at this as well http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/528-dealing-with-doorstep-visits.

I wouldnt worry about it too much. While they do do this, I would reckon that the proportion of cases where they go ahead with the visit as a proportion of the threats made is pretty small.

Have a good weekend.

SFU:)

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Many thanks for the swift reply SFU.

 

Could you shed any light on the other points of my post, regarding M&S writing a letter in such a format.

 

Have a good weekend yourself

 

E5D

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This is fairly obvsiously "another desk" at M&S. They (most OCs) play these kind of games. Pre Legal Recoveries is an interesting name dont you think? Kind of implies "well we are going to try to get our money without having to go to court", which is nice of them. Its just a game they play with little significance imo. Just more smoke and mirrors.

You get your letter off to Mr Offley on Tuesday (I would send it "proof of delivery" and as quick as possible just to be on the safe side).

Fwiw, I still think the chances are that this is just anothe scare tactic and nothing will happen - but as I said, better safe than sorry.

It is a bit of blow when you get this kind of letter - even if it means nothing, is of no significance and is of no practical consequence (I think we have identified already that if the best they have is what they have sent, they are really in bother with this one) - it does make you feel bad (I know it does when i get them). My advice - get your letter written and ready to send when the PO opens next week, and in between have a nice weekend.

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I had a phone call from PLR this evening. The person wanted to take payment to clear the account. They were a bit surprised when I said no and that the alleged agreement was unenforceable. They said it was, I said it's wasn't for a few minutes then they said they are going to recomend that the file is passed to M&S' lawyers.

 

I thanked them and hung up.

 

Looks like things are going to heat up soon.

 

E5D

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I wouldnt be all that sure.

First of all what do you expect the drone at the other end of the phone to say - "oh yes, you're right"? Sorry, but I dont think you will ever hear that.

Secondly, what do you think their legal qualifications are? Or even their knowledge of the relevant legislation? This could well just be something like "we may recommend ...."

You already have a pretty good handle on the "limitations" of what they have sent you. Just stay with them

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Hi Again,

 

Looks like PLR have taken a short break for Whitsun, so, we're back with J Ellett for the time being.

 

As always, Ive attached her letter which says that their alleged agreement is enforceable because it complies with S61(1)(b) & S198(4).

 

Yet again, they seem to be ignoring S61(1)(a).

 

Am I right in thinking that this alleged agreement isnt enforceable because there are no prescribed terms within the page that cointains the signature, despite them insisting that embodied terms are suffient.

 

Many Thanks & Kind Regards

 

E5D

M&S CCA REPLY 11.pdf

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The fact that they havent made mention of 61 1a is telling as that is the one that contains (from their point of view) "the poison pill", leading as it does to s65 and thence to s127 (3).

The argument would be that the prescribed terms should be on the same page as the signature. The problem is - and this is covered by Waksman - is what constitutes a "document in more than one part"? Would the prescribed terms being on the other side of the page be ok? It could be argued that being within the sig document (not page) that the prescribed terms are indeed "contained". That could be argued - though precedent would suggest it wouldnt work. It would certainly be taking a chance on their part and I would continue to assert as you have done. The fact that they miss out any reference to 1a suggests that they are aware of the problem they face.

Just out of interest when I was in my local M&S this week, I lifted a copy of their application pack purely for research purposes - not going there again! Interestingly their application remains on two sides of a single page, BUT, while in the old forms one would fill out one's biog details (address, bank, employment etc) and sign THAT page, the sig box is now on the other side. So page 1, if you like is to be filled out by the applicant with name, address etc. But then you have to proceed on to the other side where the sig box is practically at the bottom of the second column, after all the prescribed and other terms. It seems they have learned.

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Hi SFU,

 

Thanks for swift reply.

 

I'm going to reply to them, asserting my position and I will also ask them to comment on S61(1)(a) and why they think it has no bearing in this instance.

 

Should be interesting!! What do you think?

 

Once again, Ta and enjoy what's left of this rainy Sunday

 

E5D

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  • 2 weeks later...

I haven't heard anything from them for over a week now.

 

No letters or Phone calls. I'm getting worried. I don't think I miss them or getting jealous that thery're talking to someone else.

 

Just think it could be the calm before the storm!!

 

If thats the case, I'm ready.

 

Take Care

 

E5D

CAG Toolbar downloaded :D

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