HFO SERVICES hassle

[DonkeyB]

Did this come from HFO or Turnbull Rutherford?

 

Looks like some blatant economy with the actualité here - bordering on the f-word, if your statements show that no direct debit was set up. If this is the case, then yours is an issue that I will personally make sure gets taken up with the Old Bill!

 

Ask HFO for a copy of your Direct Debit mandate - they're obliged to keep this fo six or seven years I think. When will you get your bank statements?

[DonkeyB]

Jeez, I am shaking and struggling to believe the stunt they're trying to pull here...

[DonkeyB]

Let's get a bit more evidence first Sam... this needs to be thoroughly looked at!

[DonkeyB]

Why are they saying for security reasons they cant keep bank account details?

 

When a retailer, for example, takes your card details for a one-off payment, they are not allowed to keep your details on file and must destroy them. For a direct debit, however, or a standing order, I'm sure it is a different case (otherwise how could they continue to take the money?).

 

I know of lots of cases where direct debits have been missed then reinstated some time later - in my own case, I changed insurers, but a another insurer recommenced the old direct debit without my permission some time later - so someone must keep the details. They would also have been obliged to send you a letter confirming the DD details.

 

Let me do some digging.

 

Your HFO case is one of the most blatantly dishonest ways of trying to get round a statute-barred debt that I have ever encountered. It beggars belief.

Edited April 29, 2009 by DonkeyB

[DonkeyB]

There's a dormancy period after which the BACS system discards electronic records, but it seems odd they'd dispose of the paper trail - especially as they are obliged to write to you to confirm arrangements, and should have a copy of that correspondence.

 

Also, why would they not try to reinstate the DD?

 

Hang fire on your letter - let's get more input. Can you chase your bank for a statement at the date of the supposed first DD? Mine send them to me by fax if I ask nicely!

[DonkeyB]

They're also adding these 'broken plan' charges. Unless it's in the original T&Cs, AND they have the agreement, they can't add anything.

 

There's no opening balance, nothing. They are having a laugh.

 

Interestingly, 18/8/07 was a Saturday. Also, not sure how DDs work, but I'm sure they bounce on impact - no money, no transfer. I doubt it takes a week to be bounced back to the bank.

 

You must get your bank statements checked urgently to establish that no payments have been made. Is there any way you can think of they might have gotten your bank details?

[DonkeyB]

I note they refer to Marks & Spencer as their 'client'. I thought they'd bought the debt?

 

There's another possibility here. We're assuming HFO may have conveniently found a payment just inside the six-year limit. If, for some reason, you did pay these amounts - imagine, please! - then I think you should start looking seriously at the veracity of the alleged default date instead. It's just too convenient.

[DonkeyB]

... also the alleged start date of the account is Xmas Eve 1999, which was a Sunday.

 

You could check your credit report, but I doubt there would be a default going as far back as 2000. You could SAR M&S, to ask for statements, but again they probably don't have them as it's eight years since termination.

 

The simple fact is HFO have to PROVE the default dates.

 

I also note they took payment of the first alleged DD two days earlier than they said they would. That's because a DD on 15 Dec 06 would have been a day too late. Those statements, we need those statements...

[DonkeyB]

Whatever happens, there's a good chance they don't have the T&Cs from 1999. A CCA request will wheedle that out of them (or not), but as previous posters have said, let's first see their proof it's not statute-barred. After that, we go CCA or CPR31 route.

 

I also note they've very kindly decided you don't owe over £17k after all...

[DonkeyB]

I know it well too Sillygirl... a veritable hole. Incidentally, the more complaints the better - HFO Services's Consumer Credit licence is up for renewal in September, so the more the merrier...

[DonkeyB]

I'm wondering if, in the meantime, it's worth another 'prove it' letter to HFO specifically asking for proof of the date of opening the account and proof of the date of default. They've already put the noose around their neck with the first response re the payments.

 

Would hate to lose any momentum on this. Anger is a great motivator!

[DonkeyB]

Even if they are there, I think the default date may be dodgy. It just smells - the dates are too convenient. Have you sent the 'harassment' letter, ie. only deal with you in writing? If you do and they don't oblige it's all ammunition to help them lose their licence (though they seem quite capable of doing that without the help of CAG).

[DonkeyB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/letter-templates/131250-dca-creditor-harassment-telephone.html

 

Adapt to suit.

[DonkeyB]

A couple of points.

 

1. HFO's statement said they took money on 13 December. You say 15 December on your statement. This is important. Which is correct? If it was taken on 15 Dec, that is 6 years and ONE DAY after their claimed default date.

 

2. The original default date is central to this, as fedup says. You need evidence of this. Suggest a letter to the OC and one to HFO requesting proof. Also, perhaps worth checking your credit file - a bit of a long shot, but you never know.

 

3. Ask your bank for details of how and when this DD was set up, and which details were used to set it up. If it was done over the phone or electronically, they should still have a record; your bank would have written to you confirming details of the DD. If you filled in details on a DD form, they should have a record. However, if you made a debit card payment and those details were used to set up a DD without your knowledge, there is a bigger, more sinister problem. I'm also puzzled as to where the DD amount came from.

 

4. When this DD was supposedly set up, were you at a different (previous) address?

 

What's still more important here is that there is probably still to valid CCA. Without this, they're shafted anyway, even if they claim you made (or you did make) a payment.

[DonkeyB]

Sorry INGM, overlapped.

[DonkeyB]

1. HFO's statement said they took money on 13 December. You say 15 December on your statement. This is important. Which is correct? If it was taken on 15 Dec, that is 6 years and ONE DAY after their claimed default date.

This is on my statement in black and white saying it was taken on the 15/12/06

GREAT - THIS SHOWS THEIR STATEMENT TO BE A COMPLETE FABRICATION! IT MAY BE STATUTE BARRED ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE NO OTHER RECORD OF ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. CAN YOU CHECK OTHER DATES ACROSS THE STATEMENTS?

 

 

This could be getting good...

[DonkeyB]

Hi fedup

 

That's exactly why, if they say they have no other evidence of setting up the DD (because they've destroyed it) they are stuffed; HFwho is entitled to know how the supposed DD was set up and if it was done by him. If HFO amazingly rediscover some extra paperwork, more questions will be asked.

 

... and there's still a huge question mark over the original default date.

Edited May 5, 2009 by DonkeyB

[DonkeyB]

You've just said it all yourself - we all think it's SB! Knowing the genuine default date has some merits though.

 

First of all, they might have made it up, hoping you won't check, and it fits their plan. But they would only have done this if they KNEW it was statute barred, so proof that they have (a) made up the default date and (b) lied about the payment date will give rise for complaint and possibly even a claim against them.

 

They are relying on you not knowing the SB law.

 

If you write to them stating the debt is SB and they continue to contact you, they will be in serious trouble with the OFT.

 

As you've said, there may be issues surrounding the setting up of the direct debit. You know they've lied about the DD date, and I think they've done this to imply it's not SB - they're not smart enough to know the SB period begins when you last acknowledged the debt.

 

You are right, acknowledgement of debt needs to be in writing. But even if you completed the DD mandate, it's well out of time. You probably need to write off what you paid as down to experience though, unless there's something dodgy about the DD.

 

Hopefully a legal bod can confirm this.

[DonkeyB]

May be worth waiting to get my completely amateur theories checked out by one of the heavyweights!

[DonkeyB]

Sounds fine, and I almost hope they ignore it and contact you again...

[DonkeyB]

No way an amateur mate, I think that im more that. Just really panicking about this now. Been on the phone again tonight and they said they dont have the date of the last payment to the OC, arrrghhhhhh!!

 

They had it before. They're telling fibs! Doesn't matter anyway!

[DonkeyB]

Thanks for the kind words, fedup, but all I'm applying is logic and common sense, and a bit of forensic admin - not law. These sharks rely on people's ignorance of the law and their rights, and having seen them off myself I want to make sure others don't suffer at their greasy, smelly, pox-ridden hands.

 

I do not condone debt avoidance but I will always defend anyone who has suffered, however lightly, at the hands of these people, especially when their means are foul rather than fair. Like many posters on here - like yourself - if we can help just a little, then it's worthwhile. CAG helped me, and I owe it!

 

Ooh, I'm angry, aren't I?

[DonkeyB]

I think they have a crush on you

[DonkeyB]

Out of interest, do you know if these calls are originating in India or the UK? The Hetherington column in the Mail on Sunday seemed to imply that some calls were coming from the UK - certainly TR themselves were also making 'collection calls' and empty threats - and I was wondering if the lackeys in India are now pretending to be from TR too. All very messy.

[DonkeyB]

That's in no way racist - it's a simple statement of fact. Remember, Indian call centre staff are (famously) coached in how to speak proper English like what we does. (Wish Demon Internet would do the same...)

 

Maybe someone else with experience of calls from the muppets could tell us whether they get these numbers, or 'number withheld'.