Southeastern PFN + Admin Fee = HELP NEEDED

[aaronsat]

Looking for some advice after being issued a PFN by Southeastern on the 4th December which I have been disputing, however, so far I have only managed to get myself and extra £20 admin fee.

 

On the 5th December I wrote the below letter:

 

I write to dispute the above penalty notice and enclose a copy for your information.

I feel that I should not be responsible for the notice for the reasons listed below:

On arrival at station the train was already on the platform, so I boarded with the intention of locating a guard on the train and purchasing a ticket. As the train was over crowed I could not move from my location, therefore on arriving at London Bridge I seeked advise from a member of staff who directed me to a ticket office. At the ticket office, I explained the situation and asked to purchase a ticket and was directed to a guard standing by who issued me the penalty fare.

I feel that as I made every effort to purchase a ticket, made not attempt to leave the station with out paying for my journey, was proactive and truthful, the penalty should be reconsidered.

As I have already paid £2.00 and am happy to pay any extra amount to cover the cost of my journey from Maze Hill to London Bridge at 8:30 on the 4th December

 

On the 16th January, I received a letter from the IPFAS explaining that the PFN would not be dropped due to the Penalty Fare Rules 2002, that there was warning posters around the station and that if I needed further information I should read the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. After reading the document and looking again at the station, I compiled the following letter on the 20th January:

 

I write further to your letter of the 14th January 2009, received on the 16th January 2009.

After reading the ITAL Code of Practice for Appeals document on your website, I would like to draw your attending to page 5, paragraph 4 where it states

The Independent Appeals Service will respond to rail users within ten working days of receiving an appeal. If more information or evidence is needed, or if the decision is going to take longer than ten working days, the Independent Appeals Service will tell the rail user within ten working days.

As I had not received the communication within the 10 working day period stated in your Code of Practice, I feel the matter has fallen outside your Service Level Agreement and thus is no longer valid.

I would also like to draw your attention to point 4.1 and 4.2 of the Strategic Rail Authority Penalty Fares Rules documents posted on your website that details:

4.1 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make sure that warning notices are displayed at every penalty fares station. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3, and must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly seen by any passenger joining any penalty fares train or changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train.

4.2 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make sure that a warning notice is displayed at each entrance of each compulsory ticket area. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3.

After revisiting the station I have noted that there is no clearly displayed notice at the entry point from Woodlands Park Road or at any point along the walking route to the London bound platform. Therefore I do not feel that I was made aware of the penalty fare scheme in operation.

As mention in my letter of the 5th December, I feel I did everything possible to purchase a ticket and was proactive once arriving at London Bridge to locate a member of staff to ensure I paid for my journey, at no time did I attempt to leave the station without paying for the journey (this was noted on the penalty fare document that was issued to me by the member of staff who was located by the ticket office).

In order to draw this matter to a close and because I am an honest person that believes in paying for services used, I have enclosed a postal order for £1.10. This postal order, plus the £2.00 fine I paid on the 4th December totals £3.10 which is what I understand the journey cost is.

 

Then on the 20th February I received a letter from the IPFAS stating that the delayed response does not effect the outcome as their policy is inline with set Government approval criteria and that it would still stand as I had the opportunity to buy a ticket and that there would have been a notice in sight before boarding. They had also mention that I had lead the collector to believe I had boarded the train at Greenwich (1 station further down the line) and that was what was stated on the PFN which I had signed and was a legal document (I had not noticed this at the time, but in thinking back, when the collector asked me where I joined the train I stated “Maze Hill” to which he looked blankly at me, so I said it was near Greenwich.) The letter closed with that the balance still remained outstanding.

 

I was in the process of compiling a letter back to explain the above error by the conductor and that more importantly, there was NO warning notice from the entrance, or along the walkway to board the train and was just waiting to get some pictures printed and today received a letter from the Revenue Protection Support Services stating that I now had to pay the outstanding balance, plus £20 admin fee and that if they did not receive payment within 10 days, they would write back to their client recommending that a SUMMONS FOR CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS may be issues under section 5.3a of the Regulations of Railway Act 1889 and I could get a criminal record, £1000 fine and/or three month imprisonment.

 

I am getting to the point where I feel they have me over a barrel and that even if I try and dispute it further, they will not back down – I am also very reluctant to pay the admin fee as I have responded back to them in a timely fashion and I strongly feel I have paid what is fare and reasonable.

 

Would be grateful for any help and advise

[timbo58]

I would personally pay the PFN, the admin charges are unfortunate, but a gamble you took when attempting to challenge the PFN, ie you have delayed payment which is now being chased by RPSS (a private debt collection agency btw).

 

Whether the train was there or not is no excuse for boarding a train in a PF area without a valid ticket or permission to travel, that's tough luck I'm afraid.

 

I wouldn't worry too unduly about criminal records/huge fines etc those warnings are a bit tongue in cheek really as a PFN is only a fine for non compliance with the PF area restrictions, by issuing such the inspector at the time has accepted you did not INTEND to avoid the fare, otherwise it would have been a standard MG11 questioning, form written up and passed onto the prosecutions department -THEN upon conviction the £1000/criminal record scenario comes up.

[Gary29]

The reply will be that you should have arrived with adequate time to purchase your ticket. Unless the PFN has been incorrectly fillled in the only other excuse you can use is that the ticket office and quickfare machine were out of action.

[blazer666_uk]

Looking for some advice after being issued a PFN by Southeastern on the 4th December which I have been disputing, however, so far I have only managed to get myself and extra £20 admin fee.

 

On the 5th December I wrote the below letter:

 

I write to dispute the above penalty notice and enclose a copy for your information.

I feel that I should not be responsible for the notice for the reasons listed below:

On arrival at station the train was already on the platform, so I boarded with the intention of locating a guard on the train and purchasing a ticket. As the train was over crowed I could not move from my location, therefore on arriving at London Bridge I seeked advise from a member of staff who directed me to a ticket office. At the ticket office, I explained the situation and asked to purchase a ticket and was directed to a guard standing by who issued me the penalty fare.

I feel that as I made every effort to purchase a ticket, made not attempt to leave the station with out paying for my journey, was proactive and truthful, the penalty should be reconsidered.

As I have already paid £2.00 and am happy to pay any extra amount to cover the cost of my journey from Maze Hill to London Bridge at 8:30 on the 4th December

 

On the 16th January, I received a letter from the IPFAS explaining that the PFN would not be dropped due to the Penalty Fare Rules 2002, that there was warning posters around the station and that if I needed further information I should read the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. After reading the document and looking again at the station, I compiled the following letter on the 20th January:

 

I write further to your letter of the 14th January 2009, received on the 16th January 2009.

After reading the ITAL Code of Practice for Appeals document on your website, I would like to draw your attending to page 5, paragraph 4 where it states

The Independent Appeals Service will respond to rail users within ten working days of receiving an appeal. If more information or evidence is needed, or if the decision is going to take longer than ten working days, the Independent Appeals Service will tell the rail user within ten working days.

As I had not received the communication within the 10 working day period stated in your Code of Practice, I feel the matter has fallen outside your Service Level Agreement and thus is no longer valid.

I would also like to draw your attention to point 4.1 and 4.2 of the Strategic Rail Authority Penalty Fares Rules documents posted on your website that details:

4.1 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make sure that warning notices are displayed at every penalty fares station. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3, and must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly seen by any passenger joining any penalty fares train or changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train.

4.2 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make sure that a warning notice is displayed at each entrance of each compulsory ticket area. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3.

After revisiting the station I have noted that there is no clearly displayed notice at the entry point from Woodlands Park Road or at any point along the walking route to the London bound platform. Therefore I do not feel that I was made aware of the penalty fare scheme in operation.

As mention in my letter of the 5th December, I feel I did everything possible to purchase a ticket and was proactive once arriving at London Bridge to locate a member of staff to ensure I paid for my journey, at no time did I attempt to leave the station without paying for the journey (this was noted on the penalty fare document that was issued to me by the member of staff who was located by the ticket office).

In order to draw this matter to a close and because I am an honest person that believes in paying for services used, I have enclosed a postal order for £1.10. This postal order, plus the £2.00 fine I paid on the 4th December totals £3.10 which is what I understand the journey cost is.

 

Then on the 20th February I received a letter from the IPFAS stating that the delayed response does not effect the outcome as their policy is inline with set Government approval criteria and that it would still stand as I had the opportunity to buy a ticket and that there would have been a notice in sight before boarding. They had also mention that I had lead the collector to believe I had boarded the train at Greenwich (1 station further down the line) and that was what was stated on the PFN which I had signed and was a legal document (I had not noticed this at the time, but in thinking back, when the collector asked me where I joined the train I stated “Maze Hill” to which he looked blankly at me, so I said it was near Greenwich.) The letter closed with that the balance still remained outstanding.

 

I was in the process of compiling a letter back to explain the above error by the conductor and that more importantly, there was NO warning notice from the entrance, or along the walkway to board the train and was just waiting to get some pictures printed and today received a letter from the Revenue Protection Support Services stating that I now had to pay the outstanding balance, plus £20 admin fee and that if they did not receive payment within 10 days, they would write back to their client recommending that a SUMMONS FOR CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS may be issues under section 5.3a of the Regulations of Railway Act 1889 and I could get a criminal record, £1000 fine and/or three month imprisonment.

 

I am getting to the point where I feel they have me over a barrel and that even if I try and dispute it further, they will not back down – I am also very reluctant to pay the admin fee as I have responded back to them in a timely fashion and I strongly feel I have paid what is fare and reasonable.

 

Would be grateful for any help and advise

 

 

You boarded the train without even waiting so you have no case, you must pay the penalty fare otherwise you will end up going to court.

 

even if you intend to purchase your ticket of the guard, you are still liable for a penalty fare. These are the rules, get the ticket before getting on the train. Even if it means missing your train. You MUST allow time to purchase your ticket at least 10 mins.

 

EVERY southeastern station has a penalty fare poster, what station did you board at?

Edited March 16, 2009 by blazer666_uk

[Old-CodJA]

The OP has answered that one blazer666, he says 'Maze Hill' in the thread and the last time I was there the signs were in place and clearly visible.

 

Incidentally aaronsat, the point of asking you to sign the notice is to give you the opportunity to read, check and agree that the details are correct at the time of issue.

[blazer666_uk]

The OP has answered that one blazer666, he says 'Maze Hill' in the thread and the last time I was there the signs were in place and clearly visible.

 

Incidentally aaronsat, the point of asking you to sign the notice is to give you the opportunity to read, check and agree that the details are correct at the time of issue.

 

 

Thats correct, sorry I didnt read the rest of the thread.