Just Recieved A Signed Capital One Agreement

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

I requested my CCA from CapOne on 11th November. They didn't reply but continued to send default notices and call me. When they asked for payment I said I was waiting for a copy of the CCA and the people I spoke to said I had been sent the agreement on 14th November - very speedy!!!!! - unbelievable I thought. Nothing arrived and on Wednesday I received a letter from Debitas like the one in post 63. I called and said that I was waiting for the CCA. I was told to go back to CapOne which I did, and got told the CCA had been sent on 14/11. I said they should send it again. On Thursday another Debitas call asking if I would like to make a small payment while I was waiting. Refused and again asked for CCA. This morning I received a sheet of a bad photocopy. No letter with it, just a comp slip. At the top it there is no address for CapOne - just their name/logo-style. It says Application Form and my name and address is underneath. Blank until halfway down the rest of the page until there is a box headed

 

Credit Card Account Agreement

Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This is my application asking to be issued with a CapOne credit card- no prescribed terms or anything like that. I think I will ignore it until they call again. I have seen on other threads that they are attempting to use other later Prescribed Terms/Terms and Conditions and pretend they were in existence at the time ?2002/3 and part of the agreement, but they haven't tried this with me. Maybe they are giving up on this because clearly a number of people on this site have caught them out and challenged the rubbish they are sending?

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

I hope you had a lovely Christmas too. Mine was certainly quiet on the 'phone front - no calls from Debitas, Mercers, etc. Apparently even they stop for Christmas:) I returned home today and found that Capone has sent me a copy of some of their current T&Cs on the back of a letter, telling me to look at the enclosed leaflet for "the rest of" my T&Cs. This letter comes from the Marketing Department. I wonder if the Legal Department are sending these silly replies from Marketing precisely because the Marketing people probably won't know anything about CCA 74. Has anyone who received a bodged-together apparent agreement ever replied to Capone asking that a person of authority who is aware of the penalties of falsifying documents should sign the document as a true copy (and if they go to Court they could be charged with perjury if it's not a true copy)? In other words, don't try and get someone from the typing pool, or even marketing, to put themselves on the line because they don't know what they are doing.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Today I received two calls from Capone. The first time I asked the guy to spell his name and he had to go offline for about five minutes to agree to do it. Then I asked him if he was familiar with CCA 1974 and he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. I explained that Capone were in default as they had not supplied a copy of the original signed credit agreement. He put me on hold for a further five minutes and said it would arrive in 5-7 working days. I said I hoped it would be signed off as a true copy by someone in authority. He didn't get it at all. I am now expecting a bodged up copy.

 

Second call from Debitas came this evening. I asked the girl if she happened to be familiar with CCA 1974, and the fact that I am entitled to a copy of the original agreement. She said she wasn't calling about that, she just needed to get a payment - she wasn't "legal", she was "collections". Explained in words of one syllable that she couldn't have anything at all until I got a copy of the agreement and suggested that as she was working for a "legal" services firm she should maybe ask them for some legal training. She decided to end the call and wished me a nice day!!!!!

[Desperate Daniella]

Well how mean is that?

 

The problem with all the debitarse muppets is that they actually haven't got a clue what they are on about at all. They work to a script. If you ask a question which isn't on their list of bog standard replies they don't know what to say so keep repeating the same lines: "But I am phoning today about a payment." "I have to advise you that you are in arrears and you owe ....." Doesn't matter what you say about Capone's default, because their brains haven't been programmed to deal with that response.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Isn't it interesting that the Debitas lot are sooooo uncomfortable about giving their exact names. They are usually given quickly and sound really garbled, and if you ask them to actually spell their name they get really nervous. Don't know what I'll get next through the post but will post here.

 

DDxx

[Desperate Daniella]

It's just midnight. I'm very muddled. I'll read it again in the morning.

 

I think what we must remember is that clearly all these B******s are going to go to any lengths to try to say that something was on the back when clearly it is very unlikely. It's a nightmare. We (the public) are getting on to them and saying we know they have dodgy agreements, and they are clearly going to try to get the money even if it means falsifying documents. I think I'm going to have to go for disclosures and personal inspections in some of my situations.

 

I am absolutely sure there will be some cases going to court soon where all these T*****s will be caught out.

 

DDxx

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Big hug, and sorry for not going online earlier in the day. I am so glad noomill has answered with some very good advice.

 

I know how you are feeling. You read the posts and realize that real people are challenging these companies and winning and we are encouraged, and then at three a.m. you are awake and wondering how you can ever have the nerve to take these people on. It is so frightening. (I

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry, hit the wrong button before end of my post.

 

What I think I understand from your post is that Capone are trying to say that "there is a Clause 23 overleaf, but even if there isn't a Clause 23 overleaf Clause 13 says what would have been said in Clause 23"? Well, if the front page refers to 'Clause 23 overleaf', then Clause 23 has to be overleaf. If they are now trying to say that 13 says what 23 would have said, they clearly know that really isn't relevant.

 

I am still waiting for the bodge job from them. I am so shocked that these companies would get up to this sort of thing. Call me naive ......

 

Daniella

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry, didn't mean noomill, meant Citizen B!!! Sorry CB

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Glad you are feeling a bit better.

 

Just one more thing to throw in here. I have just been going through all my statements. Up till June 2005 all they had on the back were details of how to pay, customer services and a few bits on interest, etc., nothing like any prescribed terms. Then in July 2005 they changed the back to include a summary box which has a few terms mentioned but also says it is not intended to replace any T&Cs. Under 'Fees' it says 'See your credit card agreement'. Clearly it was at this time that they realized they needed to do something to comply with prescribed terms in some odd form other. Other cards were doing summaries on the back of their statements well before that.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

The post has just arrived.

 

Can you believe this? Capone have just sent me exactly the same thing as they sent before Christmas. No letter, just a comp slip, and with it is a badly copied sheet of A4

 

At the top right Capital One - no address.

 

top left

 

Application form

 

my name and address.

 

 

Halfway down, just the signature box for the application. No prescribed terms here.

 

It does refer to Section 23 overleaf - Use of Information, and also says 'I have read the Terms and Conditions setting out the Agreement with Capital One....." (nothing about overleaf).

 

This is like my Amex agreement - it is internally inconsistent. Why do they refer to one thing being overleaf but not the other. I am becoming more and more convinced the prescribed terms can't have been on the back.

 

I also think they must be wise by now to the fact that people are on to them about their cut and paste activities. This is the third time they have sent me 'something' (first time was just current T&Cs) then this exact photocopy twice, and no-one wants to put their name to it.

 

Cutting and pasting T&Cs and implying they were on the back of a document when they weren't is falsifying that document, and is a very serious offence.

 

No doubt the phones will start ringing from Debitas again, and I will have to give another tutorial about the CCA 74 starting from the position that they have to spell their name and then admit they don't know what I am talking about.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

As expected, got a call from Debitas this afternoon, two days after they posted what they are trying to say is an agreement (and they posted it second class!!). Refused to go through security, said they were in default as I had repeatedly told them and the people at Capital One, and was she familiar with CCA 1974? "No." "Well," I said, "if you want to call again perhaps you could make sure the call comes from someone who is." End of call.

 

I started with Capone in 2003, and if they have actually got a copy of anything else on this application form they clearly don't want me to see it. As they have just supplied the signature box for the application form twice now it'll be quite a question to ask if they suddenly come up with what was supposed to be above it, on the back and so on.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

David

 

Woof, woof!!!!! I hope Sasha will get the treat of her choice this weekend.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Sunflower,

 

I think I missed a couple of calls from Debitas yesterday. Oh dear!!! This evening I had one from a right old grumpy number - Not "Miss have a nice day" at all. It was a very quick conversation:

 

"Can I speak to Desperate Daniella, please?"

 

"Speaking."

 

"I need to take you through security."

 

"No, before you do that I need to ask you a question."

 

"If you don't go through security I cannot continue with this call."

 

"Okay then."

 

And she hung up.

 

Maybe her colleagues have told her the question I ask is whether they are familiar with CCA 1974? But if they do know that, why would they continue to get these clueless idiots to call? Yet another puzzle from Planet Capone.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Posted this earlier but it obviously got lost in the ether.

 

Call from Old Grump at Debitas today. Not "Miss have a nice day" at all.

 

Conversation went as follows:

 

"May I speak to Desperate Daniella, please?"

 

"Speaking."

 

"I need to take you through security."

 

"No, I need to ask you a question first."

 

"If you won't to through security I have to end this call."

 

"Okay then."

 

And she hung up.

 

First I wondered why they were calling again when I had already said that if anyone from Capone wanted to speak to me they should be familiar with CCA 1974. Then I remembered that the auto dial-up just allocates the calls, and they only get your file in front of them when they are connected and use the security bit to read the info. I assume she must have read the bit about being familiar with CCA 1974. Just goes to show though that regardless of what I have said they just keep putting my number back in the dial-up. Do they think they are going to get a different response? What planet are they on?

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Let's face it, Beachy, we are all in this horrible situation but I think it makes you feel a lot better if you can have a giggle about Capital One.

 

I have other cards which worry me, but clearly Capone are having a hard time finding any agreements which appear to be enforceable and the more of us who challenge them on the phone, or laugh, and don't give into the threats the better. Let's face it, they are still spending their time bullying loads of poor people who aren't lucky enough to have found CAG, and the great support we get here. However, since the Panorama programme which made me start to look at my agreements (and probably lots of other people too), they must be getting worried by the number of challenges.

 

Before I joined CAG I was so frightened of them. I think we are all a bit mad on Sunflower's thread, so please join in with your own personal favourite phone conversations with Capone!!!!

 

I'm on your thread too.

 

Good luck,

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Actually I just threatened Debitas this evening. I said if they ever called me again while the account was in dispute I would report them to FOS, OFT, the world, etc.

 

Got told again they had sent the agreement two months ago. "No - that was just my name and address under the words 'Application form' and a signature box referring to 23 overleaf". Could I ring Capone? She would give me the number. "No, I can't. I've already spoken to dozens of people at Capone, Debitas, sent letters, and so on." She's going to ask someone to send the agreement.

 

What gets me here is that there must be dozens, if not hundreds, of us all having these conversations with Capone and saying we're not going to pay, account in dispute, etc., and clearly we are all being quite firm with them, and quoting CCA 1974, etc., so why on earth are they still calling? Can they seriously expect us to say anything different? "Okay, I've told you 15 times already that this account is in dispute but, Hey, why don't I pay you something on my debit card after all?" Absolutely barking.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower, David, and everyone else.

 

I know this is your thread Sunflower, but it may be of interest to a number of people here - yours is after all the site where people are signing up! (Must be the Debitas laugh-ins!)

 

Question: How many times has anyone waited/ or should we wait / for a proper signed agreement? I know we can reply when they haven't sent the proper CCA within 12+2, or send unacceptable rubbish, but because of Christmas I am way behind on that and I have asked three times for the signed CCA. First time got current terms and conditions, second and third time got signature box and nothing else. They have obviously cut the signature box from somewhere - or did they just keep the signature box as that is all they have sent? If they have got the rest and not just the signature box they keep sending they must know it is unenforceable.

 

Just starting my ' You don't have an enforceable agreement' letters and want to send this to Capone, but they are so incompetent they may of course have a proper agreement, although I can't believe if they actually have they wouldn't have grabbed the first opportunity to send it. Why just send the signature box if they have anything else worthwhile?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Sunflower, I thought I saw a posting from you a couple of days ago on another thread at about 3.00 a.m. I know it's tempting if you can't sleep to go online, but I'm not doing it. Even Slick and I close down at about 12.30!! - I think we are both serious nightowls.

 

I have terrible insomnia - as I am sure so many of us do here - and just before Christmas I read a tip on 'top tips for girls' which said that we can only hold one thought in our minds at any one time, and of course that is absolutely right. I always wake up at about 3.00 a.m. I used to lie there worrying about it all until dawn, then I read the tip. I don't do that any more - I start reading. You need a thriller, detective, ideally, but Joanna Trollope, Mary Wesley (if you don't want anything too gory), anything will do, provided you are interested in the story. It's not a question of boring you to sleep, and you don't want to concentrate too hard, so serious stuff won't work. You may still be awake for an hour or more, but you'll start to feel sleepy and you will go to sleep. Better to read a book than lie there worrying.

 

Lots of love,

 

DD

 

DD xxx

[Desperate Daniella]

That sounds like the sweet one who once said she hoped I would have "a nice day", not one of the sour old grumps. I hope they are getting the message.

 

I saw on the 'Cheekiness towards a DCA" thread that several people were saying something like, "Oh, there goes a bumble bee." in the middle of the conversations with capone/debitas/or whatever DCA. Maybe we should co-ordinate this so that everyone who has contact with them on a particular day has to use a certain phrase in the conversation - eg. bumblebee, or "isn't it absolutely boiling today" (in midwinter when it's -1), or whatever. Just a thought.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

You have a good point there:D

 

Let's see what everyone else thinks.

 

Ideas for every day on a postcard please!! (Or here.)

 

OMG look at the time.

 

Night night

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Sunflower,

 

Debitas have been very quiet this week. I told the last one on Monday or Tuesday night that I was going to complain about harassment and didn't think they would take a blind bit of notice but they have been quiet ever since. I think guidelines say they can call once every 72 hours so they'll probably be back on again tomorrow.

 

Another tip for insomnia which I didn't think would work but it does:

 

Imagine yourself in a supermarket, and then think of everything red that you can find in there. Start with fruit, then veg, then jams, then labels on things, flowers, edam cheese rind, packaging for various things - you'll be amazed how much stuff there is that is red and then you'll be asleep...zzzzzzzzzz

 

DDxx

[Desperate Daniella]

Huh!! How come you lot are all getting people with REAL Titles? I'm still just on 'account manager' (various).

 

Citizen B - it really does work. I'd do an 'Insomnia' thread for the Bear Garden, but whenever I post anything it never seems to make it to 'New Posts'. Slick has been trying to help but I am really dippy when it comes to IT. (I have read the Dummies guide - obviously too dumb even for that!)

 

If you want to start the 'Insomnia' thread, please do and I'll add to it. I have one or two others too.

 

Sleep well.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

OMG!!! Capital One are going to let us view the agreements? A pig just flew past my window.

 

How wonderful to start the day with such a laugh :D

 

Well, I'm up for it if the date fits.

 

My day started with a letter from Debitas - first yawn of the day. It is my final warning and they are going to sell my debt on. As we know only too well Debitas LEGAL Services pay no attention to the law. They can't sell it on as it is in dispute.

 

I will reply to Mr Greg Mrr-whatever - you know the one, haven't got my letter in front of me - and capone who haven't answered my account in dispute letter, and try and make an appointment to see my agreement too. In fact, why don't we all write to them this week and ask for appointments?

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Beachy - thanks for the reminder. Unbelievable. I'll put the bit about no right to turn up without an appointment in my letter. Actually re. Mercers P2C letter I got last week, I have already sent them an email telling them they cannot visit without an appointment so thankfully I have a record of that.

[Desperate Daniella]

Nosnibor,

 

That is really observant.

 

All I have got from them is the top of an application form without their address or any other contact details. Clearly they sent it to me because it asks if my name and address are correct. There is a barcode on the right.

 

Then nothing at all until the second third which has a signature box.

I expect your signature boxes are the same - reference to 23, and so on.

 

BIG ARROW telling me to "simply sign" and return in the freepost envelope.

 

Then NOTHING until the bottom of the page where there is a totally different barcode.

 

I think, and really hope, you are on to something here. Well spotted. I hadn't even looked at the barcodes so I am really impressed.

 

DD