Parking "beyond bay markings" in council car park

[js1966]

I've just received PCN when parked in a council car park. The ticket sates the reason as "86 Parked beyond the bay markings". There are signs in the car park stating "park in marked bays only".

 

I was parked at the end of a row of cars, but the markings in the car park are quite worn except for a small L shaped section of about 4 inches long each way marking the corner of the ajacent bay on the left. There are no markings on the right hand side of where I was parked, just a gap between my car and a wall, leading to pedestrian access to the car park, which I had not blocked. At the other end of the row of cars, there is an area marked with yellow cross-haching and the words "No parking" in yellow. I was present when the civil enforcement officer issued the ticket; he told me there were plans to renew the parking bay markings, and also mark where I had parked with simialr yellow cross hatching.

 

Am I likely to have grounds to appeal on the basis that the markings were incorrect/worn? Do the regulations for parking bays on the highway apply for public car park (and if not, does the offcence code 86 only apply to the public highway)?

 

Thanks for any information!

 

John.

[Guest Ting]

No the regs do not apply to carpark markings and signs AFAIK but they still have to be clear.

Did the CEO take pics. If not, did you?

 

Can you tell me what Council please.

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[js1966]

No, he didn't take pictures, but I did on camera phone. It's Leeds City Council.

[Guest Ting]

Leeds are notorious for their markings. They've even been reported to the police earlier this year for fraud in relation to on-street markings.

 

Google 'Neil Herron' for info on Leeds parking issues in general.

 

I can't recall any document compliance issues with Leeds off hand but always worth showing me the PCN (all) and I'll check it for you.

 

Otherwise your angle at the moment is the poor markings. Wierd statement by the CEO - how can he enforce on the basis that it is going to be a restricted spot when they get around to marking?

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[lamma]

If it is "going to be" then it currently "cannot be". CEO has said that it IS not restricted. get photos.

[Guest Ting]

(and if not, does the offcence code 86 only apply to the public highway)?

 

Thanks for any information!

 

John.

 

86 is correct for off-street (well, obviously none would be correct in the circumstances you describe). Equivalent on-street is 24.

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[green_and_mean]

.

 

Otherwise your angle at the moment is the poor markings. Wierd statement by the CEO - how can he enforce on the basis that it is going to be a restricted spot when they get around to marking?

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The CEO said it was going to get yellow hatching ie make it a restricted area, which is NOT the contravention he issued for. The 'beyond the bay' contravention is at the lower £ rate 'parked in a restricted area' is at the higher.

[Guest Ting]

I understand that but he seems to be saying he may not have been parked beyond the bay markings since they were difficult to define. Without seeing pics I have to take his word.

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[js1966]

Sorry for delay in replying - been away.

 

Looked for the Neil Herron stuff - he recommends asking for a copy of the TRO - is this applicable for a public car park?

 

Thanks!

[js1966]

I've posted pics of ticket (front and back), where I was parked, and the aforementioned nearby hatched area online.

[js1966]

Sorry - should say where the pics are!

[js1966]

And the forum won't let me until I've made 5 posts....! They are below.

Edited September 16, 2008 by js1966
moved photos

[Guest Ting]

Yeah, TRO is relevant. Available via your Town Hall - or viewable wherever they direct you to. They could also send you an electronic copy - don't be fobbed off by them especially any demand for a fee - you are entitled to it.

Be prepared for some long bedtime reading though! lol. Don't be fazed when you see it, just take a step at a time and it will start to make sense. Somewhere between 10-20 pages but I have seen one recently - 1560 pages!!!!!

 

Not tried looking at your docs cos don't know that site. Any chance you could host them on 'tinypic'?

 

Seems an unhelpful rule on this forum to not be able to post pics at first -documents are the first thing we need to see in relation to parking issues!

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[js1966]

Thanks - going to contact them with appeal today, so wil lrequest that. At work now, so won't get chance to put the pictures elsewhere until this evening - the site they are on is personal webspace provided by Apple so should be fine to view there - I'v never used it for anyhting else so that's all that's there for now.

[js1966]

I've managed to get the pics on tinypic now. This is where I was parked:

 

The other "hatched" area pointed out by the CEO:

 

My parked car:

 

Front of PCN:

 

Rear of PCN:

Edited September 16, 2008 by js1966

[Guest pdyke14856]

So quite obviously not within the marked area then.

 

Go on, lamma will get you off.

[electron99]

There appears to be a footpath where you parked.Do you think a wheelchair, or mother pushing a pram can get past your car to the footpath, or from the footpath to the car park?

[Jaffa_Cake77]

just a gap between my car and a wall, leading to pedestrian access to the car park, which I had not blocked.

 

From your own photos i would say that the path is blocked.

 

If that gate opens outwards (which it probably does) then you're also blocking access to that

[Chesterexpress]

There appears to be a footpath where you parked.Do you think a wheelchair, or mother pushing a pram can get past your car to the footpath, or from the footpath to the car park?

 

electron, don't be silly, inconsiderate drivers don't care about where they park or what the consequences of their actions cause to others. It is all about me me me with all of them.

[Chesterexpress]

but the markings in the car park are quite worn except for a small L shaped section of about 4 inches long each way marking the corner of the ajacent bay on the left.

 

They look a lot more than 4" long in your photo!

[anthonyenglish]

Just a really quick couple of points

 

1 - on the picture of the 'space' you can clearly see that the marker at the end of the 'space' is L shaped and not T shaped. That would indicate to me that this isn't a valid parking space.

 

2 - relating to the footpath which you are clearly blocking. If somebody in a wheelchair struggling to get past your large car managed to scratch it in the process my guess is that you'd be complaining about how somebody could have done that you your car.

 

Personally, if I'd have seen that car parked there I would have thought that you were taking the p. It clearly isn't a parking space.

[Guest Ting]

Now seeing the pics I'd have to say I agree with the above.

 

Clearly an end marking and yes, must have obstructed the dropped kerb to the footpath too.

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[js1966]

It was definitely not my intention to be inconsiderate and block access for anyone, although it can look that way from the photos. The "footpath" across the grassed area is approx 18" to 2 feet square and has quite a big drop at far side - anyone with a pram/wheelchair would use the main pedestrian entrance which is just behind where i was standing when I took the photo, rather than this access, which is into a private club car park. As the right hand side of the car was level with about the middle of the tarmaced area when I parked, I made sure had left approx 2 feet in front of the car to ensure access (in line with the size of the tarmaced area). The "gate" to the right is a fence with a gate in it - there is about a 4 foot gap on this side, which is more than enough to allow the gate to open and allow access.

 

If the area was marked as restricted then I wouldn't park there - however it is not, so I used common sense and consideration and left room for pedestrian access to the club car park. Indeed the CEO left the car park via this tarmaced area once he had handed me the ticket!

 

Oh and apologies to chesterexpress - i guessed at 4" from memory without checking the photos!

Edited September 16, 2008 by js1966
spelling!

[Jaffa_Cake77]

JS, You made a mistake in one of your other posts which i recommend you correct

[Advocaat]

Sometimes you just have to accept that "it's a fair cop guv" and pay the fine!