Moorcroft have just been Fuzzybobbled

[fuzzybobble]

 

Well after a 6 month battle with Moorcroft and Argos, resulted in both of them failing to produce anything resembling a CCA or even a bad scan of an application form.

 

A formal complaint to both Argos and Moorcroft for numerous threat-o-grams demanding money from me and failing provide a CCA when asked for one.

 

The result......

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's one kick in the nads for Moorcroft, and they still have two more accounts that I'm in the process of giving them a good kicking for.

 

Bring it on

[fuzzybobble]

Thanks babybear, mine was through Morgan Stanley ish, which carries on but moorcroft dropped the ball.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/149476-sharkie-morganbarclayfishgoldstan-leycard.html

 

 

Fuzzy

This does mean they have just punted it back to argos, is it likely they will just try another.

 

It's quite likely, but have been working on another case where the OC keeps farming out an unenforceable statute barred debt to numerous DCA's.

 

The trick then is to gather up the evidence that they have been farming out debts that are unenforceable, then hit the OC with complaints, and the OFT.

[fuzzybobble]

Congrats on moorcrap FB...

 

i have to make a drop at moorcroft house tomorrow

 

wonder if i should tell where my cca is?

 

Put some dog poo through their letterbox for me

[fuzzybobble]

The mysterious 'K Dyde' ... signed mine as well.

 

She's one hot lady. I want her number.

 

Then I can call her 5 times a day until she's reduced to tears.

[fuzzybobble]

I think the sig depends on how many vunerable pensioners they've managed to screw a few quid out of. Set against how many "we have no cca and reluctantly had to send the account back to the OC."

 

The more drippy and careless the sig, then we know she's had more peeps from the CAG using their legal rights.

[fuzzybobble]

Actually, looking again at mine ... if you turn it or mentally turn it different ways round ... looks a bit like a pictogram from an ancient language. Made up DCA language, of course. Looks a bit like a swan.

 

could it possibly be a dead duck by any chance?

[fuzzybobble]

Deffo a dead one.

 

Does anyone have some Paxo handy? I hate to see good food go to waste.

[fuzzybobble]

I'm ready and waiting for the next DCA Argos try next. But then I will hammer Argos for farming out a so called debt both Argos and Moorcroft have failed to provide a CCA for.

 

The battle may be won, but the war is far from over.

[fuzzybobble]

Have they sent you anything at all on this one?

 

I received a dodgy scan of the front page of what looks like an application form, they did not include the rear side, or any T`s & C`s, just a scan/copy of a single side. You may have read it on my thread.

 

Also, do you have any statements from Argos? I received screen prints. Now, There are charges also applied, and also PPI. But, they are added together each month and labeled as `Other` on the statements. They are not labeled as `Charges` or `Payment Protection Insurance`, so what the hell are we supposed to do with that? Dodgy eh?

 

Regards

 

 

 

Neil.

 

I CCA'd both Moorcroft and Argos at the same time. Got nothing at all from either of them.

I know from someone who worked at Argos they faxed the applications to head office for approval. Then in store they shredded the originals 6 weeks later, so all Argos have is scanned faxes of application forms. They're totally unenforceable. And they know it, but still farm it out to DCA after DCA.

 

That's why I'm keeping a paper trail of OTF breaches to hang them with later on, when I have enough evidence.

[fuzzybobble]

My Argos account is about 2.5 years old, application done in store by a cute girl in a skimpy top, so that's why I signed up. She get's comission, I got the card and didn't use it until my mate gave me a great tent, and as a result I "needed the rest of the camping equipment", so I used the card to the tune of £750 then got made redundant from work, and they threatened me. Luckily I discovered this site and my legal rights before they could do anything.

[fuzzybobble]

Just a thought, have you checked out my CCA at all? When I first received it, I honestly thought it looked like a dodgy fax or microfiche copy. If it was an original copy, then they seriously need a new copier.

 

PT2537 seems to think it is totaly unenforceable, but the idiots they unleash onto us don`t seem to share that thought.

 

I've seen a few poor copies of application forms from Argos on here. They do look like Microfiche to me. A dead giveaway with Microfiche copies is that all the dust specks under a magnifing glass look square and curves on the larger letters an curves on signatures looked a bit jagged.

 

Usually if they produce a poor quality scan of anything, then it's very likely they only have a digital copy of the document and not the original, which they would need in court. You could then contest the validity of the document as digital copies can easily be altered/tampered with.

 

Here's what the Law Society have to say about this.....

 

What is the evidential value of a photographically or electronically stored document where the original has been destroyed?

Until the law and practice of electronically storing documents is clarified, it is only possible to provide general guidelines. The Law Society advises that:

(a) A microfilm or digital image of any document, for example in a solicitor’s file, will be admissible evidence to the same extent as the document itself, provided that there is admissible evidence of the destruction of the document and identification of the copy.

(b) Written evidence of the destruction of the original and of identification of the copy will enable the microfilm or digital image to be cited as evidence in subsequent criminal proceedings (under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984) and in civil proceedings (under the Civil Evidence Act 1995).

Edited August 10, 2008 by fuzzybobble

[fuzzybobble]

As I understand it....

 

If a DCA wants to try and use a microfiche/scanned copy of an agreement, then it must come with the paperwork that proves it's a copy of the original and that the original has been destroyed.

 

It's a bit of a grey area, but if someone who's well up on these things could take a look at it, then it might be another bit of ammo we can use against the DCA's.

 

Here's the full text.....

 

BSI standards of BIP 0008:2004 and BIP 0009-1 Code of Practive for the legal admissibility of documents.

A company's decision to scan and digitally archive documents might be determined by their confidence in whether the scanned images can be used as admissible evidence and whether the original documents can be destroyed or need to be kept in storage. In a statement made by Companies House relating to the way in which the information THEY hold may be used in evidence, they state...

"If a document is admissible in evidence, then an electronic image of that document may be treated as secondary evidence in the same manner as a photocopy or a microfiche image. It will be subject to the provisions regarding authentication contained in the Civil Evidence Act (1995) in England and Wales and the Civil Evidence Act (Scotland) 1988 in Scotland."

A revised Code of Practice for Legal Admissibility of Information Stored on Electronic Document Management Systems, BIP 0008:2004 (previously PD 0008) has been issued by the British Standards Institution (BSI).

This Code of Practice provides guidelines to ensure, as far as possible, that electronic documents and scanned images will be accepted as evidence by the courts. The basis of the guidelines are that process under which documents are managed are as important as the technology used, for example where a document is printed, it should accurately reproduce the contents of the "original". The Civil Evidence Act (1995) introduces a flexible system whereby all documents and copy documents, including computer records, can be admitted as evidence in civil proceedings. A judge will still have to be persuaded to treat that evidence as reliable, therefore organisations will have to prove the authenticity and reliability of the record.

Some companies use software which has facilities that enable it to be used in a manner compliant with the BSI DISC Code of Practice for Legal Admissibility and Evidential Weight of Information Stored Electronically (BIP 0008:2004)

As document imaging becomes more commonplace many government agencies now accept imaged documents as legal records, meaning that the paper originals can be destroyed, given certain conditions.

• The system is stored in a durable and unalterable format, such as CD, DVD or reasonable controls to ensure integrity, accuracy and reliability.
  
• A complete and accurate transfer of records has been made.
  
• The system has controls to prevent the deterioration of records.
  
• There is an indexing system that assists with finding records.
  
• The system has the ability to print copies of records.
  
• The system is able to cross-reference with other record-keeping systems and software.
  
• The system has documentation on how the software works and how it has been set up.
  

Organisations should consult with a lawyer on the specific statutes governing their area if they are in any doubt.

Typical Q&A's;

How long should I keep my paper files?

The Law Society cannot specify exactly how long individual files should be retained. It is thought to be advisable to retain all files for a minimum of six years from when the subject matter was completed. At the end of the six-year period, the files should be reviewed again according to the type of the transactions documented and the likelihood of any claims arising from such.

 

The relevant statutory provisions should also be taken into account;

(a) Under the Value Added Tax Act 1994, records and papers relevant to VAT liability have to be kept for six years. This obligation may be discharged by keeping the papers in a digital format, though Customs and Excise’s detailed requirements should first be checked with your local VAT office.

(b) The Limitation Act 1980 provides a special time limit for negligence actions where facts relevant to the cause of action are not known at the date of occurrence. It prevents the bringing of actions after six years from the date on which the cause of action occurred or three years from the date on which the plaintiff knew or ought to have known the facts, whichever is later. This provides an overriding time limit of 15 years from the defendant’s breach of duty.

Can documents be destroyed once they have been held for the relevant period?

Before destroying a document it must be determined who owns the document. Original documents such as certificates deeds and guarantees etc. which are not your property, should NOT be destroyed unless you have written permission of the owner. It is good practice to ask clients if they wish to keep their own papers, thus the potential savings to be made in space and expense must be balanced against the loss of goodwill.

Can I have my documents scanned and then destroy the originals?

As mentioned above, original documents which you are not the legal owner of should not be destroyed. Where work has been completed and the file is ‘closed’, the documents may be stored on a computer system and then destroyed after a reasonable period of time has elapsed. If there is any doubt, then the owner’s written permission should always be sought. If it is not possible to obtain such permission you will have to form a view and evaluate the risk. Organisations should consult with a lawyer on the specific statutes governing their area if they are in any doubt.

 

What procedures are recommended where an original document is stored digitally and then the original is destroyed?

(a) Written evidence of the destruction of the original and of identification of the copy must always be preserved in case oral evidence is no longer available when needed.

(b) There should be a proper system for recording that the complete file or document.

© If a microfilm, electronically or photographically stored data is required to be produced in evidence, a partner or senior member of staff should be able to certify that the document has been destroyed and that the microfilm, electronically or photographically stored data is a true record of that document.

(d) Some documents (e.g. coloured plans) can be unsatisfactory when put to microfilm, in which case the originals should be preserved.

What is the evidential value of a photographically or electronically stored document where the original has been destroyed?

Until the law and practice of electronically storing documents is clarified, it is only possible to provide general guidelines. The Law Society advises that:

(a) A microfilm or digital image of any document, for example in a solicitor’s file, will be admissible evidence to the same extent as the document itself, provided that there is admissible evidence of the destruction of the document and identification of the copy.

(b) Written evidence of the destruction of the original and of identification of the copy will enable the microfilm or digital image to be cited as evidence in subsequent criminal proceedings (under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984) and in civil proceedings (under the Civil Evidence Act 1995).