MBNA won't accept written correspondence only...

[Hopeful1]

 

Quick answers (OH just called me for tea)

 

Aren't you well looked after

 

Lexis - there is a formal template re telephone harrassment here.

 

How old is this credit card?

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis

 

Fred knows exactly what i'm thinking

 

If MBNA do not have a copy of a properly executed agreement, they have no legal right to enforce the debt. In other words they cannot chase or harrass you / your other half.

 

Now, the debt does not go away, it still exists. You would be within your legal rights not to pay at all. I, however, have used a lack of agreement to negotiate payments i can afford or full and final settlements. My view is that i have used money and i am happy to repay that, but i will not be harrassed or pay ridiculous charges.

 

Basically, without an agreement the ball is in your court.

 

Be sure not to sign anything you send.

 

Send all letters recorded / special delivery and keep the receipts.

 

Have a look here - it's the link to the letter templates that Fred has directed you to. The letter you need is letter N.

 

Have a look around the MBNA forum, many, many others have taken the same route

[Hopeful1]

 

I did sit and type out another letter regarding the payment plan, again stating no phone calls. I also asked for their formal complaints procedure as a result of the bloke from MBNA talking about his account without going through security. I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do though - would you suggest sending that as well as the CCA? I kind of wanted to as I thought if they start playing silly bu**ers it at least shows my OH has tried his best to sort something out amicably, but if anyone thinks it's best to just CCA them please shout!

 

I lexis, i would certainly send the 2nd letter. If you are offering payment and they are not accepting your offer, make the payments anyway. If they allow the money to stay in the account they are as good as accepting the offer.

 

By asking for the complaints procedure (at this stage don't say what you'll be complaining about) it shows you mean business ;-)

 

Also, are their many charges on the account?

 

I'm glad you're feeling better about all this. It's horrendous struggling with money, but it's amazing how empowering it is to know that you have rights and can't be waked over / threatened / harrassed.

 

Best wishes

[Hopeful1]

I had written in the letter about the bloke not asking any security details (and asked for his name which I figured they must have on the notes?) - but it looks like you think I should leave that out and just ask for the complaints procedure with no reason given. Do you think that would have a better effect?

 

I usually just ask for their complaints procedure, then when i receive it, i clearly state in my 1st letter, that i am making a formal complaint in accordance with their procedure. Companies have to respond. Also, if you get to the point where you want to take your complaint to Trading Standards or others, they like to see you have given the company the chance to resolve the issue.

 

Thanks for the click too

[Hopeful1]

 

I also sent a CCA, but I have a really horrible feeling I left the £1 out. Not sure what to do there, whether to wait for a bit or re-send and maybe double up on the request. If I do that though, do I start the timescales again:confused:

 

If they've given no indication that they've received it, i would feel more comfortable re-sending, so that i know i have made a correct, formal request. It's best to use postal orders and send everything recorded / special delivery. Keep all the receipts.

 

My OH has also received his statement, showing d/d payment to them as declined (I did tell them this would happen twice!), and then adding on late charges, returned payment charges, and we can charge you because we feel like it charges. Well maybe not the last one:D You're probably not far wrong there!

 

Well, as expected, he's had no reply regarding the payment offer, although the standing order for the amount offered has been paid on his account. Am I right in thinking this means technically it's classed as them accepting the offer?

 

Yes you're right. Keep making those payments now you've started. If / when you make any formal complaints it puts you in a VERY good light.

 

We've also had 3 calls today (the first since the 17th, but he is now behind on the minimums so I'm expecting this to increase). So far neither of us are answering (it's always the recorded 'this is an important call from MBNA for Mr Lexis200', so we have time to hang up). We are logging time, date, and whether it was a human or not though (so far no humans thank goodness!)

 

I've just set hubby onto getting a recorder for the phone, and when that arrives we'll both start taking calls and trying to get them to break Data Protection again etc. Until we have the recorder (and as such can prove anything said), neither of us fancy talking to them!!

 

I was also wondering, is there a set timescale for giving details of their formal complaints procedure? I specifically asked for it in the last letter, and that was received by them on the 23rd.

 

I would have thought 2 weeks would be ample time. Their procedure should then tell you what the time scales are for responding to the complaints you make.

 

I'm going to write again regarding both the phone calls and the payment plan still not being set up, but I'll leave it to the end of the week, so that they've had a bit longer to respond.

 

If anyone has any pearls of wisdom for me I'd be very glad to see them:)

 

When dealing with my hubby's card, i emailed a million and one different people at MBNA. When i have chance i will look for the posts with a load of email addies in - they were posted by Dpick i think (another MBNA lurver....not!)

 

Thanks again x

 

ps - if anyone is reading the various posts from me on here, I should point out I'm doing some and hubby is doing others. I suddenly realised it looks a bit weird that we're on the same username, but I refer to 'my OH' here, then he's got a thread going where it's him talking:D

 

I wasn't confused, but am now

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis.

 

Sorry it's taken so long - i did forget! Here's the link to Dpick's post with the email addies: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/69982-dpick-mbna-capital-one-3.html#post977881

 

I reached the point with my hubby's account where i copied everyone into every email. I decided to let them know i wasn't giving up or going quietly

[Hopeful1]

Subbing

 

Good luck Lexis MBNA are utter plonkers.... they and me go back a long way

 

Love SG x

 

Good morning hun!

 

Oh i can hear movement in the little one's room - no more peace and quiet

 

Lexis - mine is 5 too, so i'm sure i'll have important jobs such as colouring to do soon too. Just remembered i said we'd make cookies....when will people realise i am NOT Nigella Lawson

[Hopeful1]

Hi ya Lexis.

 

Just stick to this thread now otherwise it will get (more) confusing!!

 

Here's a CCA non-compliance letter written by Curlyben *click*

 

I would ignore Ageis for now, see if they get in touch again.

 

I would ask for the complaints procedure and follow that to make a complaint about the call.

 

Keep firing stuff at 'em and keep 'em busy

 

Have you sent a S.A.R? I can't remember, sorry!

[Hopeful1]

My only question is do I include the 30 days bit now, as I've been told that no longer applies? If so, have they now gone into both a dispute and a default state, or is it just a disputed account:confused: I'm getting very confused on this point.

 

No don't include the 30 days. After 12 they are in default and you are well and truly in dispute with them!!

 

Have a look at this thread here, it's long but there's lots of interesting discussion. Grab yourself a glass of wine or a coffee, whichever suits you best

 

I haven't contacted Aegis yet so I'll leave them be and see what happens.

 

Good stuff.

 

They were S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d about 18mths/2yrs ago, before our problems started in earnest, but I thought maybe if I re-did it they'd have proof of the conversation OH had with their blokey. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking:rolleyes:

 

The telephone conversation will probably not be there, but you never know! You can also check for charges etc it's amazing what you find when you look

 

 

[Hopeful1]

Okay, started reading the very interesting thread you linked to at about 9 this evening. I've just torn myself away having finished that and the dozen or so tangents it took me off on due to links within those threads. Oh, and I'm now so full of tea and biscuits (essential reading companions) that I'm feeling very poorly (or maybe that should be portly) indeed:D

 

I've actually done some exercises this morning as i'm very conscious of how much snacking i've done whilst on here this week

 

Cheers for clarifying the 30 days for me, at least that's one less thing to make my brain hurt!

 

No probs!

 

I've been chatting with hubbie and I think I'll hang on before sending Curlybens letter, only until he gets the next 'pay up' letter from them. I'm just a bit wary of poking a sleeping bear, so to speak, and that will give a little more time before they have something to focus on.

 

That's fine, you must do things at a pace that suits you. As you learn more you will gain confidence and actually begin to enjoy a bit of bear poking! (that last bit sounds a bit wrong, but never mind)

 

I'll get onto doing another S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for them - maybe include in that a request for the CCA to be sent too? I'm thinking there that if I specifically ask for it within the SAR and it doesn't come, it's more than likely it's not available? Once I have all the recent SAR details I'll start a formal complaint regarding the phone call, as, if by some miracle they have shot themselves in the foot by noting it I'll have proper ammunition. And if they haven't it still won't stop me, but at least I'll know where we stand from the outset.

 

I did that with hubbies - a CCA request and a request within the S.A.R just to be sure. Because he had a lot of charges i didn't even mention the lack of CCA. I reclaimed them 1st and then went for the PPI. When they refused to refund this i made a complaint to FOS. As part of the evidence i mentioned i was uanble to clarify the final agreement as i hadn't received it, so i didn't use it to say the debt was unenforceable.

 

Thanks again for your time - as always very helpful. I'm still not allowed to click your scales, but they'd be done again if I could!

 

That's really kind, but don't worry about that. I'm glad i can be of some help.

 

 

Speak soon no doubt!

[Hopeful1]

How funny they haven't even tried to pretend the T & Cs are the originals

 

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me

 

Have you seen this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis. The trouble with what they have sent is that they would need to include on the 'agreement' from 2001 is the following: Please refer to the terms and conditions which we will produce in 2006 (just a guess) when there is a need for us to reduce the charges we make against the account. To apply for this card, you must be psychic.

 

Good grief.

 

I am also suspicious that MBNA are suddenly sending out these applications that suddenly have this CCA 1974 info down the side.

 

Do you know roughly whether there is a high amount of charges on the account?

[Hopeful1]

Also, this post was put on Manc1876's MBNA / LINK FINANCIAL THREAD:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/141116-mbna-link-financial-2.html#post1695855

[Hopeful1]

Okay,

 

Just a little update as I've been snowed under with youngest's birthday party for the last week (and we got the day with the good weather - yay!).

 

OH has had two letters - I'll do them in separate posts so questions don't get mingled/lost. Also, I'm typing as I haven't had time to get the scanner up, so please excuse any typos:)

 

On the 27th of August OH had 1st letter:-

 

IMPORTANT DEFAULT NOTIFICATION

 

You are in breach of the agreed Terms and Conditions and a decision has been made to place a restriction on your account. This means that your card cannot be used. If you have regular transactions you should use an alternative method of payment.

 

As you account is £*** in arrears, failure to bring you account up to date will also result in the eventual termination of the agreement and the registration of a Default at the Credit Reference Agencies. (It then tells me the pitfalls of this happening over several sentences.)

 

IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO PREVENT THE TERMINATION OF YOUR AGREEMENT.

 

Call us now to make a debit card payment. Alternatively, contact us to ensure we can provide you with information to help you deal with your finances, including actions you need to take to stop the Default being registered against you. We also have leaflets available to you that detail your options.

 

Furthermore, the restriction that has been placed on your account does not have to be permanent etc.

 

Please note if a restriction is in place when your balance is cleared in full, the account will register as closed with the CRA's.

 

From my intensely unhelpful friend Mr McGrath, Head of Customer Assistance.

 

So, the couple of points I need to raise in a letter of response are (I think) that a) I don't have a copy of the terms and conditions mentioned in the first para, and b) there are only arrears on the account as they continued to add charges and interest for the best part of 6/7 weeks - OH was under the limit when he requested a payment plan and not due to make a minimum for a couple of weeks after sending the initial letter, so they had plenty of time to stop the charges etc.

 

Also, can anyone tell me the meaning of an account showing as 'closed' with the CRA's? Is this a good note or not, as I've also seen 'settled' and a couple of other similar descriptions?

 

Right, on to number two...

 

Well this letter means nothing and is just about them putting on pressure. It isn't a proper default notice which is the main thing.

 

I'm not sure what 'closed' means - sorry!

[Hopeful1]

This one was received on the 5th.

 

We may not have spoken to you for a while but you have previously advised us of your financial difficulties; as a result MBNA are currently suppressing all fees and interest on your account. However, you must be aware that you are not on a formal reduced payment programme, which means that your account is continuing to fall into arrears, but we want to help you resolve this.

 

Whilst MBNA understands your difficlt circumstances, it is our duty to inform you that due to the seriousness of the arrears (we're talking a couple of hundred quid!), if we cannot set a level of re-payment that is suitable for you we will be required to charge off your balance as a bad debt. This does not relieve you of the responsibility of repaying the full amount outstanding, which will be legally assigned to a Third Party for recover action. You should also be aware that a Default will be registered on your credit file for the next six years.

 

We would like to avoid these actions and provide you with an pooprtunity to begin a redced payment arrangement, which will reduce your debt and begin building a good credit history.

 

To do this we require you to call today so that we can discuss the situation and set a pwymant programme for you. There are many ways that we can help you but we need to spead with you to do this. It may be we just need a small increase on what you are currently paying.

 

In the meantime we appreciate that you are making every effort to continue addressing the situation by at least making some level of payment to your account.

 

Yours

 

Another Head of Customer Assistance (that makes two so far for us, I know we have a way to go to beat the four or five some people have had:))

 

So then, on the face of it, actually a pretty helpful letter. Polite, non threatening (well, compared with others) and despite being a template, rather more personal - especially the last paragraph which makes you think they may be listening a bit.

 

I have a few niggles though (naturally:-D)

 

Firstly, they have been informed many times OH cannot afford any more than is being offered (which is completely truthful, we really can't), so this 'small increase' bit is completely defunct. They've already quoted they need about 4 times what's been offered. We can't offer £4 more, let alone 4 times!

 

Creditors always keep pushing for more.

 

Secondly, this bit about it being written off as a bad debt and then being assigned. Is that right? I thought that when a debt was written off as bad, it meant the company could claim on it (either insurance or tax or something??). I assumed that if they did this, they couldn't then sell it on as that would mean they were being compensated twice? Or does the fact they say assigned make it ok (I'm not sure if assigned and sold are different:???

 

They mean they will write it off as not worth chasing and hand it over to a DCA. They shouldn't do this if they haven't complied with a CCA request or if the account is disput.

 

Thirdly, since then we've had the CCA back which they didn't supply the original terms with, so as that's not been done correctly I thought they couldn't sell/pass on etc to a DCA, or Default the account? Obviously though it came 2 days after that letter was written so I can't blame them for that bit at that time.

 

On an account this age there should be relevant t & cs provided as far as i know. I don't think it's necessary anymore on more recent accounts, but can't remember where i read this.

 

I'd like to reply to this one saying that the CCA hasn't been complied with so most of what they say is toothless at the moment. I do need to know though, has what they've sent me complied with the Act, but is just not enforceable without the original terms, or have they not complied at all due the the terms being different by several years?

 

I'm not very confident with agreements so i will see if someone else can have a look. I'd hate to lead you the wrong way.

 

As I mentioned before, it looks like they have the prescribed terms on it so I have nothing there, but the rest of the terms aren't on the agreement at all (but are referenced in the section on the left).

 

Also, having looked at another thread, I've found what they may omit, which includes the creditors signature unless: © in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; The poster (thanks foolishgirl) then goes on to explain "The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it." The agreement OH had did not have a signature (that I could see) from the creditor, and it was sent to OH, not done in person. I think this means they had to have had their sig somewhere on that sheet:???:

 

Sorry for the long post(s)! I'd just like to know how to proceed with this - specifically have they complied and it's not enforceable, or have they just not complied - and get it moving along asap.

 

Thanks:)

 

I'll pm someone to ask if they can have a look, so give it a couple of days and see if you receive a reply.

[Hopeful1]

Thanks for that HAK

 

Lexis, i haven't sent anyone a pm, but have posted your thread link on a large but useful thread about credit agreements.

 

The post with your link is here just in case you want to dip in and out of the thread

[Hopeful1]

Thanks Chalkitup

 

I must admit I'm a bit baffled that they can put throughout the application 'refer to section x of your t's and c's', but then send new terms. How does this work with variations etc, as if you can't see the originals how do you know what they can and can't vary? Especially as in the bit above the signature form it has 'you agree that we may process, use, record and disclose personal information as described in condition 11' I have no idea what that condition is as I don't have the terms they refer to:rolleyes:

 

I did think this was a bit of a sticky wicket with the prescribed terms and the signature, but wanted confirmation, so thanks for that:) I've just spent the last few hours trawling through more of the 12000+ page post, and funnily enough have just got to a large chunk debating the signature aspect - the upshot of which was exactly what you have just said, basically that you could take it to court on that alone, but the judge would almost certainly allow it anyway as it could be executed there and then. Ho Hum:)

 

Thanks again for taking the time to help, I appreciate every response.

 

Lexis, while you are unsure i would start planning your next move to keep them off your back. If you send a S.A.R request make sure it is the one that also asks for a copy of the agreement just to see what they come back with. I've had one company who sent me something different, so you never know

 

By sending for a s.a.r be clear that the account is in dispute until you have ascertained the true balance (this is a strategy i've used to buy some time). Reclaim the charges, but after that, if you're not sure whether or not the agreement is enforceable you will have to think about a repayment plan.

 

Let me know if you need a link for the s.a.r

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis. It is confusing. I've been around this site for over a year and i still don't understand everything!

 

You should be sent a copy of the origianl agreement which should be linked to the original t and cs. What is confusing with yours is that there are t and Cs on the side of the doc but they have sent additional t and cs that obviously aren't right. It's the bits down the side that is making it difficult for people to decide. From various people's experience in court, judge's are very unpredictable and we're all aware of that.

 

That is why i say if you are not sure, then make plans to pay as creditors are very quick to go to court at the moment.

 

When i said about saying the account is in dispute in relationship to the S.A.R. I used that argument when i was reclaiming charges. I said i would make a payment arrangement when i knew what the exact balance was ie when they returned my charges It really is your decision how you do this. It has to be what you and your partner are comfortable with.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/payment-protection-insurance-ppi/118145-r-subject-access-request.html

[Hopeful1]

However I am still looking into the front page they sent as when printed out on A4 it does not look correct. But that might just be my mistrust of MBNA.

If anyone else reading this has an "agreement" like the one Lexis has been sent please could they contact me.

 

Thanks

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

 

CIU - Please let me know if you come up with anything and i will do the same for you. I would put money on those agreements not being the real thing. It's just proving it that's the problem.

 

Happy detecting!!

[Hopeful1]

Just a quick reply as off to make a dream catcher with the little one!

 

The prescribed terms are part of the terms and conditions eg credit limit, interest rates etc. Because your doc has the terms and conditions on the side, we are saying it would probably be enforceable on those grounds.

 

If they hadn't put that bit on the side and had ONLY sent the seperate terms and conditions, we could have easily said said that it wasn't enforceable, 'cause they weren't the terms and conditions you signed up to, they are new ones.

 

The new terms and conditions they sent you seperately are confusing - why did they send them when there are terms and conditions on the agreement?

 

Chalkitup and i are suspicious, because of this and the fact that most old MBNA agreements have been nowhere near enforceable. All have been application forms quite clearly without any attempt at including ANY prescribed terms. We think it's odd that suddenly you and someone else have old agreements that appear to be enforceable.

 

I hope this makes a little more sense - it is a minefield, i know!

 

Keep going with the payments.

 

I suggested the S.A.R not only to reclaim charges but to see if you can catch them out. I've done this with one company and ended up with 2 agreements which were basically the same APART from my sig on one is completetely different and has additional words on it.

 

The moral of the story? You just never know what might turn up if you keep digging

[Hopeful1]

Hello again:)

 

Just a quickie this time -

 

Do I have to get hubbie to put his actual signature on an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), or can I use the digital one I made up for him?

 

I know on the CCA request you don't have to give a specimen, but I don't know about this?

 

Thanks!

 

NO NEVER EVER SIGN ANYTHING

 

Sorry to shout!

 

Some people are very handy with photoshop!

 

Always use your digital sig or i just type my name. Another trick i've tried is to do a different signature with obscure dots or lines. Something that would make it clear it's not my normal sig and i've then photocopied it so i know what i did.

 

This money stuff makes you become very devious

[Hopeful1]

Sorry, Chalkitup and i seem to be working in tandem these, but at least we both agree Good teamwork i say

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis - thank you for the click

 

Can i just throw in my two penneth's worth? Because there is a possibilty the agreement is ok and it does contain t and Cs on the side, i thought you should word your comment on it carefully. Do not tell them outright they have not complied but say something along the lines of thank you for your response to the CCA request, but i am slightly confused as to why you have included recent terms and conditions as these are clearly not what would be referred to in 200_ (whenever it was account was opened.)

 

As Chalkitup says, be a thorn in their side, but don't let them think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Another point is though, the S.A.R asks for a copy of the agreement, so why don't you hold fire to see if the send the same or something different. As i said previously you might catch them out.

 

If you do want to send the letter anyway, send it seperately to the S.A.R. Hope all that makes sense. In a rush - got to go to work

[Hopeful1]

He hee You're turning into an old hand at this now! You're like me, i always fired off a response to their letters just to make sure they knew i wasn't giving up and i knew how to play the games. I'm sure i could hear them sigh each time they opened yet another letter from me

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis

 

With regards to them ignoring you complaint you can take that to FOS.

 

With regards to an agreement without the relevant t & cs, i would make a formal complaint to them about that. When they still don't comply, complain to Trading Standards. How can you establish exactly what terms you agreed to when they can't provide you with them?

 

When all this is sorted you won't know what to do with the time you've saved reading and writing letters