NatWest taking me to court

[pt2537]

Hi westie

 

Can i check something

 

is this a loan or credit card? do you know when you took out the agreement? can i also check that they still havent replied ot your CPR request or CCA request? do you have proof of delivery for both?

 

Regards

paul

[pt2537]

Hello Paul

 

This debt is made up of two bank overdrafts. One was my own business overdraft (the larger balance) and the other was a joint personal account overdraft. Both were transfered to the Telford division of the bank in 1996. Yes, I followed this website's advice and I sent both the CCA and the CPR by recorded and I have the proof including the signature off the royal mail website.

 

Thanks for helping

 

Oh, i dont really know how to say this, infact there is no real nice way to put it.

 

Overdrafts are not covered by the same unenforceability clauses that the Credit cards store cards etc are.

 

in principle all they need ot do is write a letter showing the core terms of the overdraft and thats that im afraid so i fear that this will be very difficult to defend

 

i suggest that you consider maybe a time order to allow you time to pay

 

that may be your only option im afraid, i will have another look later this evening to see if there is anything else i can come up with, are there any charges on the account? as they may be useful to get the claim stayed to buy you some time

[pt2537]

Oh dear! There were a few interest charges applied back in 1997. Before I found this site I rang the NationalDebtHelpline who told me I could fight it if they didn't send me the CCA etc. Is there nothing I can do? I have been paying all I can afford for the past 12 years, and they know that. I don't think I will get anywhere with Incasso as they state clearly they want it all. I want to know if the balance they have is correct as it doesn't seem to match up withthe few balances they sent me years ago. I would also like to know if they can show me what they ever wanted to do with that endowment policy. I am very worried that if they get a CCj then they will try to take my house. It is only a small terrace but there is maybe 60 or 70 thousand pounds profit over the mortgage. I am disabled from work and we would never get another mortgage for another home. What can I do?

 

Hi Westie1

 

Ok, well, i just wanted to be clear to you of the implications etc, there is no point me lying to you and saying you can do this and that if its not true

 

that said, yes you do have a right to a full breakdown of how they get to that figure

 

if there are any charges contained within the figure they claim then you can reclaim them and off set them against the balance

 

i think that your arguement needs to be non compliance with requests for information

 

then their failure to show how the sums claimed accrued and any contractual agreement to allow them to add interest

 

there are many things you can do to cushion the blow, but you will not be able to win IMHO on the basis that the credit agreement is not compliant with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 that is all i am saying

[pt2537]

Hello Westie

 

Ok, when does your defence need to be with the court?

 

We do have something here to go on, but im not sure how much of the claim you will be able to successfully defend but you may be able to get it stayed, and or the charges removed

 

also the endowment policy is an interesting one

[pt2537]

In the xxxxxxxx County Court

Claim number

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

xxxxxxxxxxx- Claimant

 

and

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx - Defendant

 

 

 

Defence

 

 

1. The Claimants particulars of claim are very vague and are wholly insufficient for this action, nothing is offered as to how the figure claimed is calculated, no statements showing how the payments made by the defendant affected the balance and the particulars of claim fail to comply with CPR part 16

 

2. Despite making payments, rather than reduce the debt it appears on the figures claimed that the amount has been increasing not decreasing which the defendant considers unfair and considers the claimant to be unjustly enriching itself at the defendants expense due to the unlawful penalties charges which have been levied on the account

 

3. In respect of the figures claimed, notwithstanding the fact as already pleaded that I cannot be sure as to the correct amount owed if any, it is averred that the sums claimed contain charges which are unfair within the meaning given in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 and it is further averred that the charges levied are punitive in nature and are penalties

 

4. The issue surrounding Bank charges is currently being dealt with by the High Court in the Office of Fair Trading and Abbey and 7 others Claim number 2007 Folio 1186 and it is therefore submitted that the issues in this case are largely relevant to the OFT case and therefore this case should be stayed until the final determination of the OFT case

 

5. The defendant believes that since the claim is brought in relation to an over draft which is credit as defined within the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the claimant would not be entitled to Claim Section 69 County Courts Act 1984 interest as The County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order 1991 (No. 1184 (L. 12)) Section 2(3) states

 

(3) Interest shall not be payable under this Order where the relevant judgment-(a) is given in proceedings to recover money due under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

therefore overdrafts while exempt from certain provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 still fall under section 2 of The County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order 1991 and therefore the claimant should not be allowed to claim such sums

 

6. On or around xxx 1996 the defendant entered into a payment arrangement with the claimant to repay the sums outstanding, despite making payments as agreed, the claimant continued it appears from the limited statements that are available to the defendant that claimant continued to add charge upon charge to the balance having the effect that the balance never reduced

 

7. Due to the extremely vague nature of the claimants statement of case , the defendant wrote to the claimant asking for further information. The defendant is not legally trained and is a layman so asked for information which he felt would assist in allowing him to properly defend this action

 

8. To date the claimant has failed to respond to the defendants request for further information

 

 

 

OK this is very much work in progress and i am just pulling together a few notes that i have made over the past few minutes

 

we need to work on how we can defend this and add to that etc

[pt2537]

Hi Westie,

 

Sorry been a wee bit busy, had a few business problems to address which has caused me to divert my attentions away form the site

 

In any case its quite late now so i will need to take a look in the morning

 

regards

 

paul

[pt2537]

Hi Westie

 

Sorry but ive been tied up and havent had the time to look in

 

ive been having a think about this case, and due to the fact that the Particulars of claim are particularly vague and fail to disclosure any legal cause of action, you cannot effectivley plead a defence.

 

so as a matter of fact, we dont need to be too specific, what we can do, is this, we file a very basic defence and write to incasso pointing out their claim is vague and as a result you cannot plead to it. in the letter you invite them to serve an amended particulars of claim within 7 days

 

if they fail to do so, then you make an application to the court to throw their case out unless they amend and serve a fully particularised claim giving all the facts which you would expect to have to be able to argue a defence

 

If you can bear with me we can see what we can do tomorrow for you;)

Edited July 19, 2008 by pt2537

[pt2537]

IN THE [xxxxxxxxx] COUNTY COURT

 

ClaimNo.[________]

 

 

 

BETWEEN

 

[________]

 

Claimant

and

 

 

[________]

Defendant

 

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

 

• I , Westie1 of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx make this statement as my defence to the claim brought by the claimant
  
• The claimant’s particulars of claim are vague and disclose no cause of action. They appear to be an abuse of the process as they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR, this is even giving allowance for the fact that the claimant has used the Northampton County Court Bulk Regime
  
• The lack of detail within the claimants particulars make it impossible to understand what case it is that I am to meet and no mention of the account or agreement number or what kind of contract the action is based upon makes it impossible for the defendant to answer the claim and the defendant is of the belief that the claim being brought is insufficient and not in accordance inter alia with CPR part 16
  
• Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears without merit
  
• the claimants statement of case should in accordance with CPR 3 be struck out without further notice
  
• Notwithstanding the above 5 paragraphs, the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.
  

 

Statement of truth

 

 

The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

 

 

Signed:

 

Served this xxxx day of xxxx 2008

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the matter of NatWest v. Westie1

 

Claim number xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

 

 

Please find attached a copy of the defence by way of service. A copy has been served to the court.

 

Despite a request for clarification of matters , you have failed to comply, accordingly I am unable to plead to the case as matters stand

 

Please serve amended particulars of claim and plead your client’s case in an appropriate manner within 7 days, so that I am aware of the case I will have to meet at trial. I request that you attach to the particulars a copy of the agreement upon which the claimant relies. In addition to this I would ask that copy of any default notice along with details showing how the sums claimed accrued ,be served with the amended particulars as they are clearly relevant to your clients case .The matter will be transferred to my home court ,that being XXXXXX County Court and the claimant will have to produce the documents, in any event. In those circumstances you should plead in accordance with the CPR rather than the Northampton County Court regime.

 

Failure to provide that requested in the time period provided for will result in application to the court. I confirm a copy of this letter will be produced to the court when the question of costs falls to be decided'.

 

 

 

 

i trust you will also allow me permission to file an amended defence upon your filing a new set of particulars without my needing to request permission from the court

 

 

Regards

 

 

XXXXXXX

 

 

 

 

Hi Westie,

 

Ok here we go, lets not play silly beggars with them. send the defence above to the court and send a copy along with the letter above to incasso . i bet you any money we get a better claim sent to you which we can then defend properly

 

any questions?

[pt2537]

the onus is on the claimant to prove their case not for you to disprove it so you should be fine,

 

i would send it by special delivery if you can as you need to be 110% sure that it gets to the court and also the Solicitors

 

now then if they do not comply, we make an application to the court to strike out their claim

 

so with that in mind, i do not want to pry into your private affairs but may i ask are you in receipt of any benefits??

 

the reason i ask is that if you get benefits you can receive a fee exemption which will relieve you of having to pay the £75 fee for an application to strike out

[pt2537]

It's ok to ask, I get benefis, disability allowance as I can't walk properly and other stuff like income support etc. That's why I'm so disgusted with NatWest because I've kept them fully up to date with my circumstances and they've been ok for 12 years!! Ho hum life I suppose.

Do I sign the court copy and then digitally sign the solicitors letters?

 

Ok cool that will mean you will get an exemption on the fee, its up to you, you can either download the form or ask your local court to send you a form for the fee exemption

 

the Form you will need is a EX160 , the courts will happily pop them in the post

 

you will need to go to the court with the form really should it become necessary to ask for their case to be struck out as the court will need proof of benefits

 

however that is a way off yet, also it may be worth asking the court to send you a N244 application notice also, they are handy to have

 

with regards to the signature

 

you can print your name on the Sols letter and sign the court forms

[pt2537]

ok I will send the letters first thing in the morning. I will phone the local court as well and get them to send me those forms, just in case.

Paul you are a real star, I can't thank you enough for giving up your time and helping me (and all the others that you and the other experts help). A big thank you.

 

I'll keep you informed as to how thing go over the next week.

Cheers

Westie

 

just for your info

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex160a_e.pdf That is the EX160

 

and the N244 is here http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_e.pdf

 

once the 7 days are up from when they receive the letter, let me know and we will draft up the application

[pt2537]

HI Westie,

 

Im about to nip out now, i will be back this evening, i will answer your message then my friend

 

 

regards

 

paul

[pt2537]

Hi Westie,

 

i will post up an application for an order tonight plus instructions etc to take to the court mate,

 

if they wont play then we ask the court to kick their butt

 

Im sorry for not getting back to you last night but i had a couple of extremely urgent cases come up

 

regards

 

paul

[pt2537]

Hi Westie

 

righty then

 

take out the N244 and do the following

 

 

 

 

in box 3 type

 

An order (a draft of which is attached) that the claimants claim be struck out pursuant to rule 3.4(2)(a) of the CPR because the matters raised in the claim are totally inadequate and do not amount to a legitimate claim and the statement of case fails in its entirety to comply with the CPR part 16

 

 

 

 

para 4 tick yes

 

para 5 at hearing

 

para 6 15 minutes

 

para 7 is self explanatory

 

para 8 District judge

 

para 9 the Claimant

 

para 10 the evidence set out in the box below

 

then in the box write the following

the claimants statement of case is vague and does not identify a legitimate cause of action nor does it identify the claimants case sufficiently enough to all me to file any kind of defence

 

the statement of case fails to comply with the CPR part 16 even giving allowance for the Northampton Bulk Regime restrictions

 

no details of the nature of the agreement referred to are offered, no account number nor any details of how the sums claimed are accrued and as a direct result of this i was unable to file any defence to the claim.

 

on xxxxxx i wrote to the claimant (a copy of the letter is attached) asking that they file an amended set of particulars to allow me to know what case it is that they are bringing against me. the claimant has ignored this request and as a result i ask the court consider striking out the claimants statement of case as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim pursuant to CPR 3.4(2)(a) as the defendant is a litigant in person and is left at a servere disadvantage and unable to effectively defend this claim as a result of the claimants failure to follow the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR

 

in the alternative the defendant asks that the court make an order that unless the claimant do file an amended statement of case within 7 days the claim will be struck out without further order

 

 

 

 

 

that should do the job

 

then

 

attach the draft order which i will post up in a mo and we should be opn our way to getting this dealt with

[pt2537]

IN THE XXXXXXX COUNTY COURT Claim No:

 

 

 

BETWEEN:

 

 

[ ]

Claimant

 

and

 

 

[ ]

Defendant

 

 

 

 

draft/ORDER

 

 

 

UPON reading the Defendant's Application Notice dated [ ]

 

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT:

 

1. The claim is struck out pursuant to CPR 3.4(2)(a).

 

2. The Defendant do pay the Claimant's costs at an amount to be decided by the court.

 

 

 

that is what i would send to the court

 

you will most likely have to attend a hearing at the local court so i hope that wont be too much of a problem for you but it may bring an end to this

[pt2537]

Hi Westie1

 

sorry but i have been unavailable, i have my exams looming up on me and i had to take some time out to catchup on a few things plus my business needed my attention

 

Right then, you have an N150?

 

ok, it may be an idea to check with the court what is happening with the application, it should have been listed by now, give the court a call on monday, just to double check and then let me know,

 

the N150 is not hard to fill in so dont panic, we can sort this, and you do have a bit of time to fill it in

 

Regards

 

Paul