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NatWest taking me to court


Westie1
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Hello all, I've just joined this site, which seems to be full of good advice. Please could you look at my problem and let me know what you think as I am a bit lost!

This is my problem; Back in 1995 I was self employed and had two current account with NW, one for my business and a joint current, both overdrawn. I seriously injured my back and have not worked since 95, I am registered disabled.

Since 95 I have been making payments off these accounts, as agreed with the bank. In Oct 96 the accounts were transferred to their debt recovery dept at Telford, and since then I have continued to make the agreed payments each month. Since Oct 96 I have paid a total of just over £2400 of the debt (no mean feat as I live off benefits of £130 a week).

Anyway, in March this year they contacted me asking if I could afford to pay just £2900 to clear the debt (which they say stood at just under £8800) to which I said I could not afford and was told to carry on paying my normal monthly payment. Then last month they said they wanted to increase my monthly payment from £27 to £180, which I told them was impossible. On 14 June I get a letter from xxxxxx solicitors demanding payment of all £8736. I took advice from the National Debtline and posted off a request for my CCA and breakdown of the account, as advised.

This Saturday I get a court claim (Northampton Bulk Centre) for £8751.55 plus £290 fees and costs.

The reason I want the documents I requested is that back in Oct 95, I signed over to the bank a with profits endowment policy from Clerical Medical, which was about two years old (ten year policy). The bank manager said at the time that the bank would probably take on the policy until maturity in Jan 2004 when it would be worth £5109 plus profits. I have a bank copy of this policy transfer. Since then I have never had an explanation of what happened to the policy, and no money has ever gone into my account. I used to ask the local managers if they knew, but nothing.

I have replied to the court ticking the 'I intend to defend part of this claim' and asking for 28 days. I have also included a letter to them letting them know of the current state of play, including the problem with the endowment policy. I have also written again to xxxxx asking for the info again and telling them about the endowment.

What am I supposed to do now?

How can I clarify what I owe in total if they cannot show what happened to the endowment? Sorry it's a long story but any advice would be very welcome

Edited by Westie1
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You need to do a CPR Part 18 letter - there is one in the templates section of the site. Unfortunately I'm on my way out through the door - but somebody else will be along to give you more advice - if not I'll do it tonight.

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Have you sent a SAR to the bank - if not, now is the time to do it.

 

As well as acknowledgement of service you will need to complete your defence (or a holding defence)

 

You should also send the CPR request to their solicitors - you should be able to find something to copy in other threads if you don't get any specific help.

 

Try posting anything here for comments before you send it, but make sure that you do complete things by the date that they are required

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Send this off to the opposing solicitors....bear in mind that you could fight this on the fact that.....did they ever send you defaults ? did they ever send any letters before action ? you could also dispute this due to excessive charges on the account too....

 

Send this by recorded delivery in the first instance, and do not hand sign it....

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

 

1.1 If copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(a) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(b) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

© copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(d) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

 

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. .Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

d. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

e. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

f. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

g. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

h. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

  • Haha 1

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

DEBT COLLECTION LETTER/SAR/AGREEMENT TEMPLATES ARE HERE - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?65-legislation

 

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I AM HAPPY TO RECEIVE PM's AND I WILL RESPOND IF I FEEL I CAN ASSIST BUT WHEN YOU DO CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD ON WHICH YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO COMMENT - THANK YOU

 

IMPORTANT - If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.

Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Private message facilities are offered for users to communicate issues that are/or could be seen to be inappropriate for posting on the main forum.Site rules explain this in more detail.

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Forum rules - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forum-rules-please-read/9-forum-rules-please-read.html

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Hello folks, Thank you for your quick replies.

 

Im a bit shell shocked with the speed that the NatWest has acted. I have printed off a CPR letter from this site posted by looloo200 on 18 June 08 (sorry I can't paste the url as I havn't permission from this forum yet)

 

Is it ok as it differs slightly from 42man's? Also what is a Subject Access Request? and do I send the CPR to Incasso?

 

Many thanks

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You do not need to send a SAR as this is covered in the CPR request...and yes send to Incasso if they are the ones pursuing you (opposing solicitors) send it by recorded delivery and do not hand sign it...

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

DEBT COLLECTION LETTER/SAR/AGREEMENT TEMPLATES ARE HERE - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?65-legislation

 

IF WE HAVE BEEN HELPFUL -PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GIVE A DONATION TO HELP US TO CONTINUE HELPING YOU

 

I AM HAPPY TO RECEIVE PM's AND I WILL RESPOND IF I FEEL I CAN ASSIST BUT WHEN YOU DO CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD ON WHICH YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO COMMENT - THANK YOU

 

IMPORTANT - If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.

Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Private message facilities are offered for users to communicate issues that are/or could be seen to be inappropriate for posting on the main forum.Site rules explain this in more detail.

If you are approached by private message with a view to asking you to visit another website,please inform the site team via the report icon.

 

Forum rules - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forum-rules-please-read/9-forum-rules-please-read.html

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Thanks 42man, I just caught the post with your CPR. I have sent all my letters by recorded post and have kept copies. I'm on a steep learning curve here as it's all new ground. I have looked at lots of the posts here and the key is not to panic, I think! It's great to know there are others out there willing to help, it really makes you feel that you're not alone. Did you read the bit about my endowment policy? I have the documentation from the time I signed it over, but it is not clear what they intended to do with it. I don't think I can contact Clerical Medical about it as I signed over my title. Have you heard of this kind of thing before? I don't know if they just cashed it in or would they really have carried on payments for another 8 years?

By the way, I never had any default notices before the court claim came. NatWest letter 17 May saying 'Thankyou for your recent payments. Your payment arrangement term has now been completed and the balance is now due, please phone etc.' This was news to me, I didn't know my arrangements were due to end! Then next came xxxxx letter 12 June saying they had been instructed to recover balance etc., followed by court claim on 21 June. Very understanding people, eh?

 

Thank you for your continuing help

Edited by Westie1
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello again,

It has been a couple of weeks now since this started, I sent off the CPR as advised and as yet no reply to that or the CCA I sent earlier. They are over the time requested. I need to start sorting out my defence soon as it needs to be in by July 23. Can I have some advice please as I don't know what to do next?

I am starting to worry quite a bit about what kind of defence to put in to the court. Do I go for a holding defence as they haven't sent me any of the info I asked for? I wonder now if I made a bit of a mistake by ticking the box 'I intend to defend part of the claim'. Should I have ticked all of the claim? (I know I owe this money but I think the bank has been harsh as they know I have been trying my best, and have managed to pay off £2434 over the time). Please could someone take a look at my case (all the other postings are in this thread). I have copied the papers I think are relevant via photobucket, which I think is what you recommend. I will put them in the next post

Thank you

Edited by Westie1
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Hi westie

 

Can i check something

 

is this a loan or credit card? do you know when you took out the agreement? can i also check that they still havent replied ot your CPR request or CCA request? do you have proof of delivery for both?

 

Regards

paul

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Hello Paul

 

This debt is made up of two bank overdrafts. One was my own business overdraft (the larger balance) and the other was a joint personal account overdraft. Both were transfered to the Telford division of the bank in 1996. Yes, I followed this website's advice and I sent both the CCA and the CPR by recorded and I have the proof including the signature off the royal mail website.

 

Thanks for helping

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Hello Paul

 

This debt is made up of two bank overdrafts. One was my own business overdraft (the larger balance) and the other was a joint personal account overdraft. Both were transfered to the Telford division of the bank in 1996. Yes, I followed this website's advice and I sent both the CCA and the CPR by recorded and I have the proof including the signature off the royal mail website.

 

Thanks for helping

 

Oh, i dont really know how to say this, infact there is no real nice way to put it.

 

Overdrafts are not covered by the same unenforceability clauses that the Credit cards store cards etc are.

 

in principle all they need ot do is write a letter showing the core terms of the overdraft and thats that im afraid so i fear that this will be very difficult to defend

 

i suggest that you consider maybe a time order to allow you time to pay

 

that may be your only option im afraid, i will have another look later this evening to see if there is anything else i can come up with, are there any charges on the account? as they may be useful to get the claim stayed to buy you some time

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Oh dear! Before I found this site I rang the NationalDebtHelpline who told me I could fight it if they didn't send me the CCA etc. Is there nothing I can do? I have been paying all I can afford for the past 12 years, and they know that. I don't think I will get anywhere with xxxxxx as they state clearly they want it all. I want to know if the balance they have is correct as it doesn't seem to match up withthe few balances they sent me years ago. I would also like to know if they can show me what they ever wanted to do with that endowment policy.

Edited by Westie1
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Oh dear! There were a few interest charges applied back in 1997. Before I found this site I rang the NationalDebtHelpline who told me I could fight it if they didn't send me the CCA etc. Is there nothing I can do? I have been paying all I can afford for the past 12 years, and they know that. I don't think I will get anywhere with Incasso as they state clearly they want it all. I want to know if the balance they have is correct as it doesn't seem to match up withthe few balances they sent me years ago. I would also like to know if they can show me what they ever wanted to do with that endowment policy. I am very worried that if they get a CCj then they will try to take my house. It is only a small terrace but there is maybe 60 or 70 thousand pounds profit over the mortgage. I am disabled from work and we would never get another mortgage for another home. What can I do?

 

Hi Westie1

 

Ok, well, i just wanted to be clear to you of the implications etc, there is no point me lying to you and saying you can do this and that if its not true

 

that said, yes you do have a right to a full breakdown of how they get to that figure

 

if there are any charges contained within the figure they claim then you can reclaim them and off set them against the balance

 

i think that your arguement needs to be non compliance with requests for information

 

then their failure to show how the sums claimed accrued and any contractual agreement to allow them to add interest

 

there are many things you can do to cushion the blow, but you will not be able to win IMHO on the basis that the credit agreement is not compliant with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 that is all i am saying

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Hi Paul, I'm very sorry, I didn't mean I didn't believe you, it was just that the person at the debt helpline might have given me some false hope. I can show that their own figures don't add up from the balances on their own letters since 2001. would that be something I could argue that if they can't keep their own records straight then how can I know how much I actually owe?

If I fight it in court (I really want to avoid a charging order) then would I be liable for their costs?

Thank you again for helping

Edited by Westie1
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Hi again, I am hoping Paul or someone can help me with my defence. I am thinking of saying that because they have not sent me the info via the CPR that I can not check the balances on their letters. I only have balances on three letters in the past seven years (all their other letters do not have a balance on). My point is that the difference in balances between 2001 and now does not quite match with what I can prove I have paid. I also would like to know what happened to the balance of an endowment policy I signed over to them in 1995 which I have never been able to discover from them. Would this be some sort of valid defence?

Please can someone help

Edited by Westie1
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Hello Westie

 

Ok, when does your defence need to be with the court?

 

We do have something here to go on, but im not sure how much of the claim you will be able to successfully defend but you may be able to get it stayed, and or the charges removed

 

also the endowment policy is an interesting one

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Hi Paul, the last day for defence in the 23rd of July. The endowment policy has had me baffled for years. I agreed to sign it over in 1995 as 'a legal mortgage'. No idea what it was all about really. At the time I had only paid about a year into it and had decided not to continue. The bank manager said he would have it as some form of security, but I don't think they did anything about it.

Thanks for helping. If you want anymore details I will gladly give you them if I can. I'm glad there are people like you and the others in this forum that I can turn to.

Edited by Westie1
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In the xxxxxxxx County Court

Claim number

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

xxxxxxxxxxx- Claimant

 

and

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx - Defendant

 

 

 

Defence

 

 

1. The Claimants particulars of claim are very vague and are wholly insufficient for this action, nothing is offered as to how the figure claimed is calculated, no statements showing how the payments made by the defendant affected the balance and the particulars of claim fail to comply with CPR part 16

 

2. Despite making payments, rather than reduce the debt it appears on the figures claimed that the amount has been increasing not decreasing which the defendant considers unfair and considers the claimant to be unjustly enriching itself at the defendants expense due to the unlawful penalties charges which have been levied on the account

 

3. In respect of the figures claimed, notwithstanding the fact as already pleaded that I cannot be sure as to the correct amount owed if any, it is averred that the sums claimed contain charges which are unfair within the meaning given in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 and it is further averred that the charges levied are punitive in nature and are penalties

 

4. The issue surrounding Bank charges is currently being dealt with by the High Court in the Office of Fair Trading and Abbey and 7 others Claim number 2007 Folio 1186 and it is therefore submitted that the issues in this case are largely relevant to the OFT case and therefore this case should be stayed until the final determination of the OFT case

 

5. The defendant believes that since the claim is brought in relation to an over draft which is credit as defined within the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the claimant would not be entitled to Claim Section 69 County Courts Act 1984 interest as The County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order 1991 (No. 1184 (L. 12)) Section 2(3) states

 

(3) Interest shall not be payable under this Order where the relevant judgment-(a) is given in proceedings to recover money due under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

therefore overdrafts while exempt from certain provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 still fall under section 2 of The County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order 1991 and therefore the claimant should not be allowed to claim such sums

 

6. On or around xxx 1996 the defendant entered into a payment arrangement with the claimant to repay the sums outstanding, despite making payments as agreed, the claimant continued it appears from the limited statements that are available to the defendant that claimant continued to add charge upon charge to the balance having the effect that the balance never reduced

 

7. Due to the extremely vague nature of the claimants statement of case , the defendant wrote to the claimant asking for further information. The defendant is not legally trained and is a layman so asked for information which he felt would assist in allowing him to properly defend this action

 

8. To date the claimant has failed to respond to the defendants request for further information

 

 

 

OK this is very much work in progress and i am just pulling together a few notes that i have made over the past few minutes

 

we need to work on how we can defend this and add to that etc

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