H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***

[kennyh]

Shadow,

I ain't 'avin' that!!

[kennyh]

First posted by YB

I never spotted the OFT's err in their thinking

You and many many others!

if someone is to go before a judge which, in the early days of CAG, you had to be prepared to do,

How does the song go - 'Let's go round again'

then we need to have the argument nailed down so that everyone understands it and can argue it.

Will not the revised temps give us a start point on this quest?

[kennyh]

posted earlier by srf

The UTCCR 1999 replace the 1994 Regulations of the same name. They derive from an EU Directive and apply only to consumer contracts (Reg 4). A term will be regarded as unfair under Reg 5 if:

 

• It has not been individually negotiated

  
  

• It is contrary to the requirement of good faith

  
  

• It causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations to the detriment of the consumer

  
  

• Sch 2 contains an indicative but not exhaustive list of what may be regarded as unfair

  
  

So do we go after them using a combi of the above (on as broad a reference as we can) and use SOGA for recovery of unreasonable costs?

[kennyh]

Originally posted by OFT POC

6 Regulation 8(1) provides that an unfair term in a contract concluded with a consumer by a seller or supplier shall not be binding on the consumer.

 

Are we not going back to deciding on whats not fair (ie bank's level of charges)?

[kennyh]

Never mind 200+ pages - just scroll back over 3 or 4 and you should (coupled with what's actually written on the court stay notification) have a reasonable idea how to proceed if you must.

[kennyh]

Jeez - I know variety is supposed to be the spice of life but I've stay conditions ranging from 28 days to 3 months to no limit! I have to buy another b****y calender

[kennyh]

Any news on the amended POC templates anyone?

Sweating also!

[kennyh]

Thanks Car

[kennyh]

Having read the last 2 pages best I stay away from tall buildings and sharp objects.

[kennyh]

Hi Booky,

Yup there's definitely an increased demand for £50 notes (unfulfilled in our house)- 'they're' worried that folk are stashing them under matresses (not mine unfortunately!)

[kennyh]

So-following Aequitas articles yesterday am I to believe that we are to lay down our arms; forget all about UTCCR and SOGA?

[kennyh]

Earlier by Aequitas

that is tantamount to saying that banks should provide banking services free.

Certainly if that's how they are advertising it.

The fact that several hundred thousand others may have signed the same form of contract is not relevant.

Individually negotiated as per UTCCR - don't think so

Never mind 'devil's advocate' are you related to AK?

Previously posted by InformedSearcher

When you sign T&C's you are really signing an agreement where those terms are the basis of contract. They are possibly negotiable and not set in stone

.

Really??

[kennyh]

Basically IF we signed up to an account which demands £30 for a transgression then, until recent years, we can (and should) argue that we resided in the belief that the bank operated with total integrity and that (£30) was how much it cost them as a 'liquidated loss' or whatever.

Since it has been shown that their costs are probably well below £3 then there MUST be a mechanism that will give us redress.

I doubt that there is a member of the forum which doesn't believe that a recompense figure to cover banks costs is justified - it really is a question of degree.

Incidentally I don't recall giving agreement for the bank to add insult to injury by charging a further 25-30% in interest ON the 'penalty', 'fee' or whatever. Does us USUROUS spring to the lips?

[kennyh]

Where else can you earn 8% interest on your money?

Start your County Court claim NOW!!!

 

Shown in margin of Aequitas who seems dead set on discouraging any further action in that sphere.

[kennyh]

there is ample evidence of the banks acting in bad faith in respect of their explanations to their customers about the reason and purpose of bank charges.

 

I pray this is so - I pray even more that I will be able to understand it!

the evidence the banks gave to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges were calculated was contradictory to what they told the court in the OFT test case. Is this not admissible as evidence?

Thanks YB - my sentiment on the subject still holds.

Let's hope!

Edited December 10, 2009 by kennyh
left a bit out

[kennyh]

Posted by YB

and the banks bills will be much higher.

 

Our dosh also for a significant part?

[kennyh]

But they'll cost share - won't they? And I'd lay money on 'virement' occuring within the bank budgets!

[kennyh]

But we do not own any banks, and we are shareholders in 2 banks

Agreed - in spades.

So far as relevance is concerned, I get really p****d off with apparent lack of control of the public funds which have been 'donated'; makes us look like turkeys voting for Xmas. Like lending someone funds to buy a gun then they shoot the donor!

Of course we can't pin down specific bank notes but there's no reason why I shouldn't aim some angst and frustration at the banking world! Please don't say that 'they' can prevent that also - otherwise it comes down to kicking the cat!

[kennyh]

YB

I managed public funds (and co-ordinated the 'spend') in the 70s/80s in the billions and used to balance the books to within 0.2% AND none of our 'front line' services were hamstrung. Now I see a defence 'black hole' of £6bn open up and I KNOW just how slipshod the Treasury were at the time (cowtowing to Maggy for the most part) and nothing seems to have improved - I'm not 'angry' - I'm bloody FURIOUS!!

[kennyh]

planned by the civil service 10 years in advance

AND I did LTCs (Long Term Costings) with strategic assumptions drawn up by people straitjacketed by politics and costed by total amateurs! All cost & management specialists/accountants exist at a much lower level (I also had the task of arranging for their training and subsequent allocation throughout the service earlier in my career.)

If they say they do not know what the outcome is going to be they're lying.

You give them too much credit!!

[kennyh]

Labour MP

LOL

[kennyh]

koalaattack - where is 'down here'?

[kennyh]

They have stayed all cases for another 12 months as the courts are aware that the OFT are taking the claim higher.

Anyone else experienced this?

[kennyh]

If we had another POC with reasonable content we can drown them in POC's and I'd lay money we'd be back to where we were with the banks capitulating and paying out left right and center

 

In an imperfect world I'll have some of that.

AND if there is a reimpostion of 'stays' will it be ditto for waivers?

[kennyh]

Although another side of me would like to have a go. After 2 1/2 years I really would like my day in court

Despite numerous 'wins' I've never been to court but at near 70 yrs I'm not about to run when someone says 'get out of town'.