My best friend -vs- Newlyn re Council Tax

[Dons2008]

Morning everybody

 

My friend who lives close by asked me to ask you guys in this forum some advice ...

 

Michelle got home from work on Friday evening after picking up the kids to fiind a white envelope hanging outside her front door. It was a Notice of Distress from Newlyn in respect of a liability order from our local council for the sum of 300.94 in unpaid Council Tax (but the toal payable is 481.44 - no explanation of what the odd 180.00 is for).

 

On the notice it said "INVENTORY OF GOODS SEIZED AND DISTRAINED TO WHICH THE ABOVE NOTICE REFERS" with Sat Dish scrawled below.

 

Now, the situation is this.. When Michelle first moved into her maisonette, there was an old satellite dish on the rear exterior wall, which the previous tenants (who now live next door) had installed. Her landlady asked Michelle if she minded that dish staying on the wall, as the co-axial cable from the dish was now fed into next door where the tenants were now residing.

Michelle said she could see no reason why it should be a problem, so there the dish stayed. When she called me on Friday to go over and have a look out of the first floor lounge window, there was indeed no dish on her exterior wall. But it appears that the same dish is now on the exterior wall of the neighbours maisonette, although Michelle isn't entirely sure if it is the dish or not as the neighbours may have had it reinstalled while Michelle's been at work in the day...

 

So, she wants to know - can Newlyn 'distress' goods that haven't been 'levied' upon? If Newlyn have taken the satellite dish, what recourse does Michelle have against them? Can Newlyn just leave an official notification hanging out of her letterbox? If Michelle hasn't signed any paperwork regarding the seizure of goods, is it binding? If Newlyn haven't even been through Michelle's front door, can they take any action against her at all??

 

If anyone can help with a template letter that I can print and give to her to complain that would be fab - she doesn't have internet at home and I promised I would get her some advice today....

 

Thanks Guys n Girls

[Guest 10110001]

When Michelle first moved into her maisonette, there was an old satellite dish on the rear exterior wall, which the previous tenants (who now live next door) had installed. Her landlady asked Michelle if she minded that dish staying on the wall, as the co-axial cable from the dish was now fed into next door where the tenants were now residing.

 

Bailiffs can only levy distress on movable goods, a satellite dish isn’t movable so it’s an invalid levy. My opinion but the bailiff is being rather stupid. In fact it makes a nifty newpaper headline, Council Tax Bailiffs sieze TV Ariel. Sell it to the chavloids [email protected]

 

So, she wants to know - can Newlyn 'distress' goods that haven't been 'levied' upon?

 

Pass, Tomtubby is best to answer that.

 

If Newlyn have taken the satellite dish, what recourse does Michelle have against them?

 

If the bailiff removes it then your neighbour can replace it new for old and charge it to the council in the small claims track. NEVER contact the bailiff.

 

If Newlyn haven't even been through Michelle's front door, can they take any action against her at all??

 

Yes, the bailiff can keep calling back until the bailiff gets his foot into the door. Always answer the door with the chain on until the matter is resolved.

[Dons2008]

Tomtubby - 1011001 seems to think yo may be able to help..... please may I have your thoughts..

 

Thank you

Dons2008

[Dons2008]

Anyone able to help - pleease??

[Guest 10110001]

What else do you need?

 

The forums are most active in the evenings.

[Dons2008]

Hi... I just need some, like - Yes's and No's and legislation quotes that these people have to adhere to... I have seen other really detailed advice on here and hoped I could get the same kind of advice (not that your advice wasn't helpful, in fact it raised a smile lol) poor Michelle is sh*tt*ng bricks over it all, bless her... I've told her to sit tight until more info comes along...

 

Thank you for your words anyway!!!

[Guest 10110001]

The points of law are:

 

The council has to follow the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Rwgulations 1992

 

The Bailiff has to adhere to the Distress for Rent Rules 1998 when enforcing payment of council tax.

 

The bailiff must be certificated. Contact HMCS Bailiff register 0207 210 0516.

 

The firm the bailiff works for must be licensed for consumer credit under Section 29A(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Check the Consumer Credit public register 020 7211 8608 and press 1 to search register.

 

If there is an irregularity then he cannot enforce the debt, otherwise he will be committing a criminal offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

Check the document, (ask Tomtubby, she has the prescribed fee schedules) If the bailiff has overcharged you then he has already committed a criminal offence under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1968. You should contact police quoting this legislation and show the document.

 

To be honest your friend shouldn't worry. I reckon the bailiff is being a twit by levying on her neighbours satellite dish. Take some photos of the dish, make copies of the document and contact The Sun Daily Mail and the Mirror etc, offer them the story for £500 for the exclusive or £250 otherwise. She has a good headline. Council Tax Bailiff Sieze TV Ariel & freelence chequebook journalists love this kind of stuff. Make something of it.

[Dons2008]

Hiya

 

Wow that made for some interesting reading

 

The Bailiff didn't leave a name on the Distress notice, just a squiggle.. Do I prepare her a letter for Newlyn asking who the bailiff was on that date and say that a formal complaint will be made to the court about them, then check them out? Is the Bailiff in breach of DPA by leaving her notice hanging out of the front door - by that I mean open to ID theft etc etc..

 

(Michelle has said that she does intend paying the money but is going through matrimonial problems at the moment and so having no experience of this type before is a bit on edge..)

 

Sorry to ask so many questions, but having been reading through all the boards today I can see its a minefield (and I'm not that familiar with all this myself so do excuse me!!) just don't know where to begin with a letter for her

 

The tabloids thing is really funny, although she is quite a private person and may not be up for doing that but I love the irony of it... Any further comments from anybody/suggestions etc would be great. 1011001, thank you for the info

[Guest 10110001]

Hiya

 

Wow that made for some interesting reading

 

The Bailiff didn't leave a name on the Distress notice, just a squiggle..

 

Something definitely wrong there, a bailiff has to indentify himself.

 

Do I prepare her a letter for Newlyn asking who the bailiff was on that date and say that a formal complaint will be made to the court about them, then check them out?

 

Keep bailiff and council issues separate, contact the council and make an offer of payament and that'll get the matter out of the hands of the bailiff. If the council refuses any reasonable offer, it scuppers any legal action the council might bring later.

 

Is the Bailiff in breach of Data Protection Act by leaving her notice hanging out of the front door - by that I mean open to ID theft etc etc..

 

Not as far as I'm aware, but someone else on this forum might know otherwise, but I see it as professional incompetence.

 

(Michelle has said that she does intend paying the money but is going through matrimonial problems at the moment and so having no experience of this type before is a bit on edge..)

 

It sounds like the bailiff is a fruit & nut case. Never open the door to anyone until this matter is resolved & she'll be fine. If she is frightened by a man at the door, call police and DO NOT open the door to police either, speak through a window.

 

(Sorry to ask so many questions, but having been reading through all the boards today I can see its a minefield (and I'm not that familiar with all this myself so do excuse me!!) just don't know where to begin with a letter for her

 

Write to the council with a formal offer to pay in installmants she can realistically afford, if the council ignore your letter and you are still harrassed by bailiffs, then file a complaint of misfeasance with the Local Goverment Ombudsman. Remember you must get the case out of the bailiff and back with the council. Until then, your door must remain shut at all times.

 

The tabloids thing is really funny, although she is quite a private person and may not be up for doing that but I love the irony of it... Any further comments from anybody/suggestions etc would be great. 1011001, thank you for the info

 

It'll shame the bailiff and the council by exposing their stupdity and show them up in public. It'll probably add weight in getting the case out of the bailiffs hands.

[Dons2008]

Thanks for your words, I am going to show her what has been written so far, in the meantime if anyone else can give any more details/tips etc it will be greatly appreciated!!!

 

Thank you everyone and have a good evening

 

Will check back tomorrow

 

D x

[Dons2008]

* * * * UPDATE * * * *

 

Hi all

 

I need a few pointers.... I wrote the below for Michelle to send to Newlyn (and she got a reply yesterday)

 

Reference NOTICE OF DISTRESS dated 15/02/08

Dear Newlyn

Your Bailiff left on Friday, a Notice of Distress as above, hanging from the letterbox of my address. I do believe that this is unprofessional incompetence by the Bailiff and that my details could have been used to commit ID theft and/or fraud and I am taking this very seriously.

The Notice stated that the Bailiff has seized and distrained a ‘Sat Dish’. I believe the Bailiff means a Satellite Dish. The Bailiff didn’t leave a name on the notice. I would be grateful if you would confirm who this Bailiff was and provide details of the relevant certificate so that I may make a complaint to the court about them and also check their details out with HMCS Bailiff Register.

Moving onto the Satellite Dish in question – has this actually been removed from the property? I do believe that Bailiffs can only levy distress on moveable goods, and a Satellite Dish is not moveable so that would render this Distress Notice invalid.

The fees on the Distress Notice do not seem to add up – the Liability Order is for the sum of 300.00 and total payable reads 481.44. Please submit a complete breakdown of what the 180.50 extra is for, so that I may check with the prescribed fee schedules that you are not in breach of these in your operation.

I am also aware that your company has to adhere to the Distress for Rent Rules 1998 when enforcing council tax and if your Bailiff hasn’t done so, appropriate legal action will be taken against Newlyn.

I would also like to inform your company that I will not allow one of your bailiff's peaceful entry into my home. I am aware that under the Council Tax Administration & Enforcement Act 1993 (as amended), you can charge a first visit fee of £24.50 and a second visit fee, if necessary, of £18.00. No further visit fees can be imposed. I am aware of my rights, and I am aware also that in order for you to remove goods from my home you must previously have levied upon those goods. Your company are aware that no levy has ever been made and therefore you have no right to threaten me with removal of goods in the manner described in your letter. If your company continues with enforcement action in an unprofessional and threatening manner, I will be making a formal complaint about the bailiff’s conduct to the County Court once you have furnished me with the concerned Bailiff’s name and certificate number.

I await your sincere reply

Now - the reply she got goes as follows::

Dear Mrs M. ********

re **** borough council, o/s balance 283.00

Thank you for your letter the contents of which have been noted.

The Bailiff dealing with your case is ********* ********* and I attach a copy of his certificate for your info. We would advise that ******* ******* is a senior bailiff within the company and has many years experience and it is unusual to receive a complaint. We requested the bailiff provide a full report and the matter will be investigated. During our enquiries the bailiff claims a notice was put through your letterbox at your property and not hanging out of the letterbox as you stated.

The bailiff did levy a satellite dish but this has not been removed at this stage. We advise that the satellite dish is a valid item to levy. The fact that you are unwilling to give us access means that we will continue to levy upon goods outside of the property which we reasonable believe belong to you.

Legislation dictates we can charge 24.50 1st visit fee and 18.00 2nd visit fee as you correctly state in your letter. However we would advise we are also to charge any resonable costs for further attendance made with vehicles and therefore your claim we cannot charge further is inaccurate. Our standard charge for a visit is 105.00 I attach a copy of our fee shcedule for your info.

Please contact us for further info blah

So - what Michelle needs to know now is can they levy on her wheely bin/daffodils/recycling box/garden waste bag as these are the only items she has outside the maisonette... Is the fee schedule inaccurate? Is the satellite dish (which does belong to the girls next door!!!!!) a valid levyable item?

Please may I have any pointers/advice as Michelle is really quite stressed about this, moreso the fact that they are prepared to levy on the stones in the road outside her house....

Thanks

[Guest Screw The Bailiff]

If you are going to make a complaint against a bailiff then have a look through this checklist of grounds

 

For some inspiration on how to add meat to your letters, have look through the STB library of bailiff related free templates. It'll help you stick one up the bailiffs.

 

Keep us informed with your progress.

[Dons2008]

Oh gosh thats a minefield but I will give it a go!!!

 

Thanks!!

[The Chunchmeister]

DONS2008 sadly your predicament is all too common however the advice that you are being given here is either erroneous or too convoluted to follow, neither will assist you in an early resolution.

It seems that the actions carried out by the bailiff in these circumstances is a classic example of “constructive distress” and whilst not all cases of this kind are unlawful in your case I am confident that the conduct of the bailiff is totally unlawful. The Community Charge legal case of Evans v South Ribble council found in favour of the appellant (i.e. you in this case) and ruled that the distress was unlawful.

I have confidence in bringing this to a satisfactory conclusion, if you want to contact me by private message I will assist you in this matter.

[Dons2008]

Hi Chunchmeister

 

Can you give details of the case in question as Michelle has indicated that she may like to find out more about possibly going down this route (although she is so stressed with her separation and impending divorce I don't know if she would follow through) It's worth finding out a bit more... thanks

[TaxedAndConfused]

I have confidence in bringing this to a satisfactory conclusion, if you want to contact me by private mage I will assist you in this matter.

 

 

I think it would be better to do this on the forum, without personal details, for a few reasons :

 

1. You get the most advice for different sources and

2. Others may be able to point you at similar threads with advice there and

3. Others may also benefit - which is kind of the point of this place.

[Dons2008]

Thats cool - Chunchmeister - its over to you.....

 

[Dons2008]

Bump

 

I have news of a development in this case - will get Michelle's letter from her tonight and post it up tomorrow

[Dons2008]

OK here is the letter I helped Michelle send to Newlyn:

Reference NOTICE OF DISTRESS dated 15/02/08

Dear Newlyn

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 03rd March and note its content.

Firstly, regarding a satellite dish that you say has been levied upon, I was amused to read that you say you are entitled to levy upon it as well as other items outside the property, considering I only have a wheelie bin outside the property I am now looking forward to receiving a levy notice for that.

Considering that there are 2 satellite dishes either side of my windows, one white one which belongs to no.8 Any street and a black one that belongs to no.12 Any street, you are more than welcome to come along and seize these goods as these are wired into the respective properties (and doing so may cause some slight criminal damage to the neighbours’ respective properties). Of course, if your senior bailiff Mr.XXXXXXXX was acting legally and within his capacity at the time of levying the said satellite dish, he would have noticed the connections into no.8 and no.12 Any street from the satellite dishes, and this is what brings me to complain that he has acted maliciously in levying an item incorrectly.

Further to your comments about your scale of charges, I have researched them myself and been amused to have found the following:

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992

AS AMENDED BY THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1993,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2003

AND THE COUNCIL TAX AND NON-DOMESTIC RATING (AMENDMENT) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2006

SCHEDULE 5 CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS

• The sum in respect of charges connected with the distress which may be aggregated under Regulation 45(2)
  shall be as set out in the following Table-
  (1) Matter connected with distress
  (2) Charge
  A For making a visit to premises with a view to
  Levying distress (where no levy is made) -
   
  (i) where the visit is the first or only
  such visit): £24.50
   
  (ii) where the visit is the second such
  visit: £18.00
  

And also:

BAILIFF FEES FOR COUNCIL TAX

 

Source:

 

The Council Tax Administration & Enforcement (Amendment) 1993. Si 773 amended by Si 295 0f 1998, Si 768 of 2003 and Si 3395 of 2006

 

EXPLANATION

 

First visit fee: £24.50

 

This is for a first attendance to levy but where a levy does not takes place. (For example where you are not in)

 

The bailiff can charge a levy feeif theylevybut he cannot charge both amounts on the same occasion.

 

Second visit fee: £18.00

 

Despite any further visits, the bailiff can only charge for a maximum of 2 visits.

 

Levy Fee:

 

This is where the bailiff levies on goods and a Walking Possession is signed.

 

Under this heading the bailiff can charge £24.50 for the first £100, and 4% on the next £400 etc. For example: assuming your Council Tax bill is £600, the total amount that you should pay is as follows:

 

First £100 £24.50

Next £400 @ 4% £16.00

Remaining £100 @ 2.5% £ 2.50

Walking Possession Fee £12.00

 

Total £55.00

 

Attendance fee:

 

For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to recover goods after the levy has been made under this heading.

I should be grateful for you to confirm the accuracy of these.

As requested in my previous letter, I am now making a second and final request that you submit a complete breakdown of the difference between the 300.94 liability order and the 481.44 total payable figure on your notice of distress.

I look forward to receiving by return, your comments. I am seeking legal advice regarding this situation and also independent advice from Payplan. Please also remember that a Form4 complaint is being drafted against your employee as he has levied incorrectly and the national press and Trading Standards will also receive a copy of my complaint.

I look forward to your sincere and swift reply.

Mrs M.E. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Then, Newlyn sent the following reply:

27/03/08

Dear Mrs. M. XXXXXXXXXX

Re: XXXXX Council - Council Tax Debt

Thank you for your recent letter, the contents of which have been noted.

You are correct in saying that you have not signed any walking possession, and we apreciate you bringing this to our attention. We would advise, however,t hat a levy and a walking possession agreement are two separate actions and one does not reply upon another. A Walking possession agreement is a form signed by the debtor authorising removal of levied items should the arrangement break. This signed order allows us to gain 'peaceful entry' (usually with a locksmith) into the premises to remove the levied items. The Walking possession agreement secures the arrangement and prevents other bailiff companies removing upon items for any other outstanding debts.

A levy is simply the act of identifying and notifying any goods which the bailiff reasonably believes to belong to the named debtor. The bailiff is able to levy on various items on the exterior of the property including vehicles and satellite dishes. A walking possession order would not be necessary should we remove the vehicle as we would not need to gain entry into the property.

Your file has now been passed to XXXX council, our client as per their instructions and we are no longer dealing with your case and you should not hear from us again.

I trust this clarifies matters

Senior correspondence officer

Newlyn PLC

After reading all this, shall I help Michelle draw up a Form 4 against Newlyn? Or does their letter indicating a return of file to client suffice to say that the matter is closed? Should she contact our local council, or should she wait for them to get in touch with her? What if they set another firm of bailiffs onto her after Newlyn handed back the file? Does she have any recourse here - any help would be great

Thanks

[Dons2008]

bump