car clamped for none payment of council tax

[LoveBird4u]

Baliffs last night clamped our car because we was two months behind with our agreement we made with them, I know your going to say our fault cause it is we should of contacted them and tried to come to some sort of new payment agreement but quite honestly things have gone from bad to worse since xmas and didnt give it a thought till they came and clamped the car last night, they refused to remove the clamp till we paid £882.22, we told them that the car was on finance but they said not a problem they can override that it wont stop us taking the car, we also explained that without the car I cant do my job therefore no money but that didnt work either, we did manage to get the money from a very dear uncle which was a gods send.

 

I thought that they couldnt take the car if it was on finance or needed to do your job, are we mislead in thinking this?

[chris600uk]

I thought that they couldnt take the car if it was on finance or needed to do your job, are we mislead in thinking this?

 

Well they are not supposed to take the car if it's on finance, leased, or the property of a third party. You need tomtubby's experience for this one.

 

You should have parked the car away from the house, still that's little help now, just make sure you do that in future.

 

You've obviously made the payment, but that is unlikely to be the end of the matter, because they will be looking for any opportunity to come back and get some more money out of you in fees.

 

When you said there was an agreement, was that a walking possession agreement?

[chris600uk]

I know your going to say our fault cause it is we should of contacted them and tried to come to some sort of new payment agreement

 

Not at all, you've done what most people do, I've done it myself.

 

But now you have an opportunity to get smart and make it very very difficult for them to treat you in this disgusting way ever again.

 

Start with the paper trail, look at every document/letter you've ever received, check the bailiffs certificate is valid, start writing letters asking for information, there are template letters on here that you can use.

[Guest 10110001]

the car was on finance but they said not a problem they can override that

 

Something about that doesn't sit right, what did he mean by 'override'? The car may still be a property of the finance company making it an invalid levy.

 

Tomtubby can check the bailiffs credentials, licensing arrangements and his fees, if there's an irregularity then you have some recourse. Check that the bailiff has followed correct procedure. Did you pay the bailiff by card?

 

Keep a record of all your costs and expenses, if you have been a victim of fraud or extortion then you can reclaim it from the council.

 

Needing the vehicle for the course of your work doesn't necessarily mean commuting between home and permanent place of work, its a grey area and someone else might know the specifics.

[chris600uk]

Well I think he means the view that seizable property in the care or control of the debtor is covered by the power of levy.

 

I don't think it means that they can remove it, because then the owner (finance co, hire company) has a right to have it returned to the person leasing or hiring it at the bailiffs expense.

 

But it may possibility mean that they can clamp it, not sure though.

 

Much better to take the protection of the Statute of Marlborough and park it on the public highway, away from the debtors house.

[chris600uk]

The car may still be a property of the finance company making it an invalid levy.

 

I'm certain that it is, at least that's what my hp agreement says very clearly.

[chris600uk]

At the time of the seizure we were unaware the vehicle was subject to a Hire Purchase Agreement and would refer you to Regulations 45 1 (a) which directs us to seize goods OF the debtor and not just goods OWNED by the debtor. The judge in the case of Ann Ambrose v Nottingham City Council (2004) clearly states that he considered that the phrase was wide enough to include goods that were not actually owned by the debtor but were in their possession and control which is the case with a car that is on hire purchase.

 

This was the response of Bristow and Sutor in similar circumstances.

See http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs/125996-bristow-sutor-council-tax-new-post.html

I recommend that the OP reads this post.

 

I think the OP would have had the right to have the clamp removed, but I feel that there's a problem with their perception about who and what they are dealing with.

 

When you write to the bailiffs office you put them in a position where they might be sued for the wrong behaviour. Just begging with a large baldy bailiff simply feeds his ego, and drives up his fees, he's not going to accept any argument because he knows that by the time you've sunk that low, you are about to give him whatever he asks for.

 

Not rocket science, just the dark side of human nature at work.

[tomtubby]

This is unusual.

 

You say that you missed payments under arrangement. Had the bailiff previously visited you?

 

Did you sign a walking possession?

 

What was on the WP?

 

What fees have been charged?

 

What company of bailiffs?

 

Finally, can you send me by private message ONLY the name of the bailiff so that I can search our database to ensure that he is certificated.

[LoveBird4u]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply to me.

 

My husband let them in the first time they called last year, he was bullied into making a £250 monthly payment, and he did sign the list of which the only thing the bailiff put down was the car, he did tell them that it was on finance and offered to show him the finance agreement, however, all the bailiff said was that if we keep the payments up it wouldnt come to taking the car it was really only for his records.

 

To cut a long story short over the xmas period we had a house break in, paperwork got mislaid, circumstances beyond our control lead to me being unable to do my job which is a fostercarer, this meant we was without any children for over 6 weeks, and yes you guessed it no money coming in, my husband was meant to call the bailiffs and try and come to another arrangement untill we was back on our feet so to speak, I did try to talk to the two big burley bailiffs that came round and explain that the whole amount would be paid but we needed two weeks because we now had a child in placement and that meant I was at least now being paid, they was having none of it, I also explained that I needed the car to do my job eg get the child back and forwards to school and for all his hospital appointments and my training courses that I had to attened as part of my job.

 

To be very truthful I felt intimidated by them, they asked me if I had any realations that I could contact to get the money by tomorrow and if I rang them now and they agreeded to let us borrow the money and could get it to us by tomorrow (friday) then they would unclamp my car so I could at least do my job in the morning, I did call my uncle the only I could think of that would have anything near that kind of money, and lucky for me he was only too happy to help out, having that sorted and my uncle bringing the money first thing in morning the bailiff then removed the clamp telling me they was doing me a big favour by doing this.

 

They was back here at 11.30 on friday to take the payment in full, this included a fee of £110.

 

To answer the question what did they mean by override the finance agreement, I was told by them that they could override the finance and sell the car then we would have to still pay the finance company what ever was still owing as if we still owned the car.

 

I hope this makes the situation I was in a little clearer.

[chris600uk]

What a load of complete b*ll*cks!

 

You must treat anything a bailiff says to you as a lie, unless another person who you have reason to trust verifies that it is not a lie.

[chris600uk]

My husband let them in the first time they called last year, he was bullied into making a £250 monthly payment, and he did sign the list of which the only thing the bailiff put down was the car, he did tell them that it was on finance and offered to show him the finance agreement, however, all the bailiff said was that if we keep the payments up it wouldnt come to taking the car it was really only for his records.

 

OK, so they have made an invalid levy, which doesn't give them any rights whatsoever.

 

But you must challenge it - doing nothing is not an option anymore.

 

You must email them, backed up by recorded delivery telling them that they have made an invalid levy. I'll post a sample letter you could use.

[chris600uk]

have you sent tomtubby a private message with the name of the bailiff?

 

If not, do it now.

[chris600uk]

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: xxxxxxxxx Client reference xxxxxxxxx

Please understand that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not

gain entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods

I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

I have discovered that you have levied upon a vehicle that is subject to a Hire Purchase agreement. That means that it is not my property, and therefore your levy dated **** 2007 is not valid.

However I appreciate that you may have right to charge a visit fee providing your bailiff was in possession of a valid certificate at that time.

 

You therefore have no right of entry

 

Please understand that at no time have I refused to pay my Council Tax arrears

The debts subject to the liability orders will be cleared very shortly

The outstanding fees that you are legally entitled to will also be paid

I am sending a copy of this letter to ********* Council

 

Please supply the following information about your account xxxxxxx; the total debt on this account, what each charge is for with the date each visit took place, the name of the bailiff, the court at which he was certified and the name of the bailiff who attended on each date (please provide receipts where necessary).

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Now does anyone anywhere have any comment about that letter?

 

What you are saying to the bailiff is, you've been in my house under false pretences and you've told me a load of s**t, but now I know what you are up to, so F*** **F! and don't come back.

 

Now of course, you can expect them to be unhappy about that.

No self-respecting bully will easily expect the worm they've been happily tormenting to bite back.

 

That's the first warning shot, and once you've started, why stop?

[Guest 10110001]

To answer the question what did they mean by override the finance agreement, I was told by them that they could override the finance and sell the car then we would have to still pay the finance company what ever was still owing as if we still owned the car.

 

You need to find the name & address of the court that certificated the bailiff and file a complaint of misfeasance against him to be placed before the judge.

 

The bailiff made a false representation to obtain a money transfer for himself or another and this is a criminal offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. He abused his position as a bailiff and this is an offence under Section 4 of the Act.

 

Go with Tomtubby who can get the necessary info.

[chris600uk]

Now that's what I call fighting back!

[The Watcher]

Needing the vehicle for the course of your work doesn't necessarily mean commuting between home and permanent place of work, its a grey area and someone else might know the specifics.

 

I doubt very much if that would be the case - otherwise EVERYONE could claim that.

 

It could only apply if you were, say, a salesperson, and needed to travel between appointments.

[rambo]

At the time of the seizure we were unaware the vehicle was subject to a Hire Purchase Agreement and would refer you to Regulations 45 1 (a) which directs us to seize goods OF the debtor and not just goods OWNED by the debtor. The judge in the case of Ann Ambrose v Nottingham City Council (2004) clearly states that he considered that the phrase was wide enough to include goods that were not actually owned by the debtor but were in their possession and control which is the case with a car that is on hire purchase.

 

The above statement REALLY worries me. What if I borrow a friends car?, I am in possession and control of the car, are bailiffs saying they could take that?. THis whole situation stinks!!!!.

[chris600uk]

Yes it does stink.

 

But to be fair to Bristow and Sutor, they did release the car as soon as they were officially informed that the car wasn't actually the debtors property.

Which is why I always say you should do everything in writing.

 

In my own case, my friends car WAS seized (not clamped or removed) and make the subject of a Walking Possession, and I had to make a statutory declaration to get it formally released. But theoretically that still allows the bailiff to charge for the levy because they weren't to know that when they seized it. Although they didn't.

[chris600uk]

I've already posted this dinner invitation (tongue in cheek) in my own thread, but it's just as valid here.

 

How many visitors would you get if you told them this:

 

" Hi, please come to dinner, oh by the way make sure you bring your V5, proof of purchase, and insurance certificate so I can take copies; and before you go there's an affidavit form to fill in before you leave!" RSVP

 

Probably very few.

[chris600uk]

The cheek of some bailiffs never ceases to amaze me.

 

How could they possibly think that they were doing you a favour! :mad:The lousy S*** only said that to make himself feel more important.

 

A favour would be handing the case back to the council, but oh no, they won't do that!

 

I think you should get tt on the case here and look at claiming money back or punishing the creep in some way.

 

Don't let them get away with it, find a way to take him down a peg or two.

[tomtubby]

I have sent you a private message.

[ALBRECHT]

I am looking into this, and what I have learned so far is how quick and easy the council apply for liability orders (once granted you can't challenge them) HOWEVER When a bailiff acts on behalf of a local authority, and LEVYS/DISTRESSES goods on your property (Inventory) you have a LEGAL RIGHT to charge the AUTHORITY (NOT THE BAILIFFS) a STORAGE FEE, Because having researched this area, I have discovered that when the goods are distressed on your property, they LEGALLY belong to the Authority, SO MAKE SURE YOUR STORAGE FEES ARE HIGHER THAN YOUR PAYMENTS TO THEM! And remember to SENT THEM A 7 DAY INVOICE OR ELSE,

 

IT IS TIME THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY UNITE TOGETHER TO FIGHT THIS USSR-TYPE OF NONSENSE, I upsettingly told my nanny the other day "I wish the Germans won the war, Because had they known then what this GREEDY Gov were going to do to us in the future, then they would have surrendered to Adolf! " Disgusting it sounds BUT we MAY of had a better life!

[chris600uk]

I am looking into this, and what I have learned so far is how quick and easy the council apply for liability orders (once granted you can't challenge them) HOWEVER When a bailiff acts on behalf of a local authority, and LEVYS/DISTRESSES goods on your property (Inventory) you have a LEGAL RIGHT to charge the AUTHORITY (NOT THE BAILIFFS) a STORAGE FEE, Because having researched this area, I have discovered that when the goods are distressed on your property, they LEGALLY belong to the Authority, SO MAKE SURE YOUR STORAGE FEES ARE HIGHER THAN YOUR PAYMENTS TO THEM! And remember to SENT THEM A 7 DAY INVOICE OR ELSE,

 

 

Quite fascinating, where did you find that?

[chris600uk]

IT IS TIME THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY UNITE TOGETHER TO FIGHT THIS USSR-TYPE OF NONSENSE, I upsettingly told my nanny the other day "I wish the Germans won the war, Because had they known then what this GREEDY Gov were going to do to us in the future, then they would have surrendered to Adolf! " Disgusting it sounds BUT we MAY of had a better life!

 

Don't be misled, all governments are greedy because all politicians are by their very nature potentially greedy, corrupt and dishonest, just like most humans. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

The difference is the collective sense of what is right and wrong, which you didn't get with the USSR, China, Khmer Rouge, and the 3rd Reich. That's because these were/are systems of government that are based upon the maintenance of power within a small select band.

 

Our system such as it is, may be terribly flawed, but at least we can limit the excessive behaviour of each government by the ballot.

That's the only thing that we have to protect us, and over the years, many people have died to guarantee that right.

 

If you don't like a law, then campaign to change it, in this country that is a practical possibility; in the others I mentioned you'd just disappear.

[chris600uk]

"I wish the Germans won the war, Because had they known then what this GREEDY Gov were going to do to us in the future, then they would have surrendered to Adolf! " Disgusting it sounds BUT we MAY of had a better life!

 

Well no we wouldn't, Adolf had bankrupted Germany and he is now generally regarded as a clever but disturbed human being, who along with his cronies, are a source of embarrassment to most Germans and Austrians who would rather put the whole sorry episode behind them.

 

Most military states go bust, only peace and stability makes a country rich.

Adam Smiths 1st Law of Economics applies.