Please help - Red & Lowell DCA's

[MATTYFEZ]

Hi all,

 

Im looking for a bit of advice, recently my girlfriend has been contacted first by lowell, and then by RED DCA's with reference to an alleged debt on a T-mobile phone contract from some years ago.

 

I have advised her to dispute the debt outright, as we belive the contract was made fraudulently by an unknown 3rd party, as she has no recollecton of any contract.

 

I understand we need to send a CCA rquest for a copy of the origeonal agreement, in order to stop action from the DCA's until the contract has been verified.

Can I use the standard CCA template for this?

 

Also, more importantly, we only have PO Box adresses for the DCA's, so how do we go about proving delivery of such a request?

 

Appologies if its obvious, but I have searched and cant find the right info on how to proceed.

 

Thanks very much for any advice.

[Curlyben]

CCA doesn't cover mobile contracts, but there are other avenues open for this.

 

For openers throw this at them and make them PROVE you are liable for this debt.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

 

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

 

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

 

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

 

I/we look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Recorded delivery works fine to a PO box.

[MATTYFEZ]

Fantastic, thanks very much for the advice, Im glad I asked now, instead of just firing off a CCA.

 

Ill send that and see where it takes us.

 

Much appreciated.

[MATTYFEZ]

Quick update, nothing much to report.

 

Had a letter from RED saying they have requested account statements from t-moblie, and then some time after, a near identical letter from lowells.

 

My question is, a statement stating £xxx is owed does not prove to us that the contract is legitemate, can we insist on seeing the signature on the origeonal contract agreement to see if it appears fake?

 

Thanks.

[The GodMother]

well are you sure you signed a contract with the company.

 

CCAs dont necessarly work for mobile phone contracts

[MATTYFEZ]

Well thats the thing, she dosent think she took out the contract, and thinks she wasnt actually living there at the time. After a discussion we came to the conclusion that its possible foul play by a third party.

 

So im not sure where that leaves us, If they wont provide proof, then they wont get paid as far as I'm concerned, if they want to take it to court then they are going to have to provide proof at some point.

 

So I assume I just maintain this stance untill some concrete facts come to light?

[The GodMother]

you do have another option.

 

You can phone/write to the council that the property falls under and ask to see if the person was living there at the time.

 

They may ask you to confirm some things but as long as you explain the situation then they may be able to help you.

 

I know when we suspected foul play and could prove foul play several other ways, eg new tenacny at different address and bills at the new address, the council bent over backwards to help us with the tenacny situation.

 

As a result the council wrote us a letter explaining what they had done and forwarded use 2 copys of everything they had done.

 

What they done was search the records of the property and proved that we were not living living at the address on the day the contract was taken out.

 

they had printed of the details of the day we moved into the council property and the dy we moved out of the council property and all details of the council tax dates as well. They also proved to us the date we moved into the new property and the date the council tax started for that property.

[MATTYFEZ]

Thanks for the help...

 

Just recived a new letter:

 

We write in respect of the above debt, as previously notified in writing we have purchased from Tmobile.

 

We are now entitled to recive payment of the balance of £xxx from you and enclose your copy of your statement as requested.

The last letter I sent was identical to the one a few posts above, and was not a request for a statement.

Niether Tmobile nor ourselves are aware of any reason for non-payment.

 

Please make payment or contact us within 7 days to agree payment, failing which we reserve the right to take legal procedings without further notice.

 

attached to this letter was a number of photo-copied phonebills which dont mean anything to us.

*******************************************************

 

So, what next, do we write to them being open and tell them of the suspected fraud, or push on asking for proof....all we need is a copy of the signature on the agreement, along with bank account numbers amd any other personal details that the contract was paid from, and we can clear all this up.

 

Thanks again for any help!

[The GodMother]

you could always do a SAR request.

 

This would give you the info you are requesting.

 

I would also speak to the council like i suggested before.

 

Chrissi

[MATTYFEZ]

Ok, thanks everso, should we SAR red, lowells, t-mobile, or all three?

 

The problem is, we cant ask the council as she just paid board in cash, so no bills in her name for that addy

[The GodMother]

ok then she could ask the landlord.

 

All three i would suggest but the main one is T Mobile.

[MATTYFEZ]

Ok, thanks, the plan for now is to S.A.R

T-Mobile and copy (cc) RED DCA in on the letter, re-itterating the fact that the debt is in despute.

 

I Will post a draft letter here tomorrow to see if anyone can give advice, but its late now so Im going to bed

[MATTYFEZ]

Ok, letter draft to RED DCA:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

You have contacted me regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself.

I do not acknowledge any such debt being owed to T-mobile.

The photocopied account statements you have sent to me do not qualify as evidence as to my liability for the debt in question.

 

The account in question, is suspected by me to be incorrect or fraudulent,

and T-mobile will be served with a subject acsess request (S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)) under the data protection act in due course in an attempt to clarify this situation.

A simple copy of the original details used to create the T-mobile contract will clarify this matter.

 

Rest assured no monies will be paid until the above has been satisfied.

 

 

I am familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I would ask you again that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my liability for the debt in question.

 

I await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed.

Any further spurious threats will certainly result in complaints to trading standards and the office of fair trading.

I look forward to your reply.

 

]*******************************************************

Does that look ok, I plan to send this to RED, with a SAR to T-Mobile to hopefully shed some light on this mess.

 

Any comments welcome.

[The GodMother]

looks fine to me

[MATTYFEZ]

Quick update,

 

RED sent us a barly legible copy of some generic t-mobile T's & C's, along with a very brief letter saying that no contract was signed, but inserting the sim into the handset meant my gilfriend is liable, can you pay us now, please.

 

Now this is interesting, as I could just about read the T&C's and the first paragraph makes reference to an agreement form, yep, the agreement that RED say isnt signed/dosent exist.

 

We now suspect that there is no agreement form, because she never took that contract, and that RED/Lowell are at best, mistaken.

 

Not to mention that no mobile phone co.is just going to set up a call plan and give you a phone with no formal agreement.

 

I will paste the full letter here when I get time.

 

T-mobile have now been issued a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), and both RED and lowell have been sent identical letters informing them of all the above whilst still disputing and accepting no liability.

 

Got another letter from lowels, no aknowlegment of the SAR, or the dispute, just more demands for money.

 

So is it reasonable to just ignore them untill t-mobile come up with the SAR informaton?

 

What if t-moblie dont comply with the SAR? can I assume then,that there is no proof, and therefore no case?

[The GodMother]

well they will have to give you something.

 

On the statements you have are there and familiar numbers that relate to your girlfriend.

 

As in MUM mobile

dad mobile, friends mobile, mum home/mum and dad home, work, etc?

 

If not then i would suggest something fishy is going on.

 

Just wait as lowells are ignoring you. You could complain to TS and the OFT as the debt is in dispute.

 

T Mobile will get back to you.

 

Have you spoken to the landlord os the property and asked if there was a tenancy agreement or anything like that?

[MATTYFEZ]

Hi, the statements they have sent are not full bills with call lists, just photcopies of the girocheck payment things and the total ammount due, so we cant look up any of the numbers.

 

Some of the summaries have been paid, but we have no bank details used for payment or anything, jst hope the sar from t-mobile shows somthing that can be verified oe way or another.

[The GodMother]

they cant be classed as statements if they dont state anything lol

 

Sorry if they want money then tell them provide me the details or no money they should understand that.

[buzby]

What confuses me is DID the person have a mobile phone under a T-Mobile contract at any time? It's usually not difficult to remember the usage of a type of phone and/or the number that was used. The action taken therefore is based on if the answer is yes or no. If NO, then you cannot SAR T-mobile, as this would indicate your acceptance of a contract being in existance and a requirement to abide by it. Any DCA that is pursuing you should be told that there never has been a phone or service provided by T-mobile, and the debt is disputed. The debt is then passed back to the network. It will most likely that the debt has been sold on, and will continue to be so.

 

The way of resolving the issue is to contact one of the CRAs and get a copy of the credit file. This may show T-mobile as a creditor and any comments they have made on the conduct of the account going back 6 years. If there's nothing on the file, then she didn't have a contract.

[The GodMother]

Busby

 

We all no what a DCA should do but it is plainly obvious that they are not doing this and as a result T-Mobile are needing o be drafted in to deal with this.

 

Contacting a CRA would not help if somebody took out the account in her name as it will give the info on her credit report.

 

I know this as i have had it done and the company are not interested.

[buzby]

I'm afraid you will have no idea, indeed none of us will have any idea what a DCA will no until they do it - making assumptions doesn't help the OP, as every issue will be different.

 

As for contacting the CRA, afraid you're also wrong there. As the OP has no idea if a contract was entered into, how else will there be any data to confirm (or otherwise) that such a contract exists. The possibility of a fraudulent contract being evident on the credit report would be a bonus, as this will confirm the situation, and allow it to be challenged. Without this information the OP is disadvantaged.

 

As to your last paragraph, I don't know what you mean. Not interested in fraud? Not interested in providing details... what?

[MATTYFEZ]

Hi there, thanks for all comments so far....

 

T-mobile have been sent a SAR, however the only identifiable info we could use in the request is her(my girlfriends) name, and the DCA's reference number, so also included was a request saying that if they need more information no confirm ID, then please write back to us stating what(if any) further info is required.

 

We have had no responce from Tmobile as of yet.

 

Ok, here is a copy of the last letter we sent, both RED and Lowells got an identical letter:

 

 

20/03/08

FYI: A.Shepherd of RED and N.Beaver of Lowell:

With regard to previous communications, reference xxxxxxxxxxxx

Firstly, I would ask you to in future communicate under the same name, as it is apparent that you both operate under the same consumer credit licence.

Sending duplicates of your spurious threats under different company names only serves to confuse the situation.

I re-iterate that I do not acknowledge any such debt being owed to T-mobile.

This statement has been made numerous times and you are now flippantly disregarding industry guidelines regarding pursual and legal threats related to debts that are under dispute.

This has now become seious, and I ask you to cease and desist your unfounded demands for money from myself immediately, as this constitutes extortion.

I am attempting to clarify this situation in good faith, and the only assistance I am getting from yourselves is further demands for money.

As a result of this, I have now served T-mobile with a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act, ordering a full disclosure of all information they hold relating to this matter.

Again I reiterate that you have no right to pursue this matter.

Furthermore, according to correspondence from Red DCA dated 17/03/08, you state that no agreement was signed… yet in the attached information detailing agreement terms, it makes specific reference to an “agreement form” in the first paragraph under the heading “Main points of the agreement”!!

There is clearly something amiss here, either your companies are being deceitful for the purpose of financial gain, or you are withholding information for the same reasons, or you are simply incompetent.

I am aware of no mobile Telco that would issue a handset and set up a calling facility without proper agreement, identification and verification of the proposing customer.

To suggest that this is the case is simply preposterous!

I am now in a position whereby I feel that communicating with yourselves in attempt to clarify this situation is futile, therefore I will not enter into any further communication with Red or Lowell until such a time that T-mobile or yourselves can provide some information of substance, which I have repeatedly and justifiably requested to no avail.

Again, you may postulate as vigorously as you wish, however no monies will be paid.

Yours,

 

RED then reverted back to thier templates file and replied with a standard "you owe us, now pay or else" letter.

 

As far as I can see, I have done all I reasonably can to sort this out, where as the DCA have just kept asking for money.

 

As stated in my letter to them, I now intend to just ignore them to see if they start legal proceedings.

 

Does this seem reasoable?

 

Again thanks for any input.

[The GodMother]

You could also inform trading standards and the OFT of this.

[MATTYFEZ]

Cheers, yes we are seriously contemplating this now.

 

Got another letter, as follows:

 

"Thankyou for your recent correspondance regarding the account.

We have noted your comments but advise you that with the information we hold we belive you are infact our customer and therefore liable for the outstanding balance.

We have sent statements (see letter in above post) from Tmoblie on xx/xx/xx ans have told you we cannot provide a copy of contract because non was signed.

We ask that you contact our office to discuss this matter further.

We trust this clarifies the matter and look forward to hearing from you.

Yours.....

Im very tempted to reply to this, asking them to provide this ellusive "Information" they hold.....and why they have not provided it yet.

 

Also they have stated themselves that there is no written contract....?

 

The other half of me tells me Im wasting my time, I think I shall just wait untill the SAR comes back from Tmobile (so ive got some real info) and ignore these clowns in the interim.

 

Again, thanks for any comments....

[The GodMother]

you could always point out that you never recieved statements just copies of payment slips as that is what u recieved and as a result they have not provided you any statements and the debt is still in dipute.