bought a car saturday afternoon no tax supplyed are you able to drive it around?

[gwc1000]

can any body be sure about this because i might use this in my defence in a on going issue i have with them, need to be sure though:rolleyes:

 

I have been a second hand car dealer for nearly thirty years now and I have never heard anything like that before. As soon as you, the customer hand the money over the vehicle becomes your property and your responsibility. Liability for a RFL lies with you. In fact I always put the time of day by the date on the invoice so I get no nasty surprises in the post. What I sometimes do if the customer has off road parking at home is to run the vehicle home for them on trade plates and the rest is up to them. There are some post offices that are open Saturday afternoons for road tax, we have one locally that is open till 6pm Monday to Saturday. You should have left the car at the dealers and returned for it when you had the road tax. Many dealers will not tax a car for customers simply because more often than not the customer hasn't changed his insurance and they want the dealer to use his trade policy, but then we never can be sure that the customer will actually insure the car. Every vehicle I send to auction has no road tax (any outstanding I always apply for a refund) some have no MoT some have no logbook some might have no paperwork at all, so to say dealers cannot sell a car without all it's documentation I would suggest is ridiculous.

[gwc1000]

Hi, myself and many dealers that I know are reluctant to tax cars using the trade policy because we take road insurance very seriously. It is as you say due to a sense of community, not obligation. I have read of too many horror stories involving uninsured motorists. Personally I feel that the punishment for such offences makes it sometimes more attractive for the car owner to take a chance and have no insurance.

[gwc1000]

I would suggest that the dealer gave bad advice. Having just purchased a car is no defence for having no road tax. You would be liable if pulled up by the police. Obviously some police officers are understanding and would let you on your way, however most would report you to the DVLA.

[gwc1000]

 

Failure to display a tax disc is a criminal offence. It can be argued that handing over the keys to a car that is known to be untaxed is "aiding & abetting" a crime. I have no idea if the police would try (or have tried) prosecutions on dealers. I would say dealers are taking risks though as they are a key group of people who can limit car tax evasion. If some-one drove uninsured from a garage and had a accident involving fatalities, then the police would probably throw the book at anyone they could.

 

I disagree. Firstly no road tax is not a criminal offence. If the police stop you they do not prosecute but send the details to the DVLA who themselves take you to court.

Handing over keys to a vehicle without road tax cannot be seen as aiding and abetting, because maybe the vehicle isn't actually going to be used on the road. I have sold cars that are going to be exported, or are going into a private collection and will never be used on the UK roads again. I have sold vehicles to people who don't have a driving licence, the car is a birthday or christmas present for somebody else. It has been up to those individuals to employ a driver to move the car. It is not my responsibility what somebody does with an item once I have sold it to them. If they choose themselves to break the law I cannot see how I could be held responsible. I have on occasions advised buyers to leave the car where it is and come back when they have road tax, some do whilst others laugh and go on their merry way. I would say that my only responsibility with the vehicle lies with the roadworthyness of it.

I would bring up my point again about the vehicles I send to auction each week. If it was illegal then BCA would be out of business next week.

Many a time I have come out from a car auction and have seen the police sitting at the side of the road waiting to pick up private people coming out in newly purchased cars, ready to pounce for no MoT insurance etc. and the only person they prosecute is the man or woman sitting in the driver's seat.

[gwc1000]

Correct, but failing to display road tax is a criminal offence

 

Yes, I agree.

[gwc1000]

Hi Guys

Been in the car trade all my life and the main reason i would not tax a car with my trade policy is because the car would then be put in my name so if a car needs taxed then its up to the buyer to tax car Some car dealers will tell you whatever just to get the sale

Not true. With the style of registration document there is now, it is easy to tax a car for a customer using your trade policy if you know how. The vehicle doesn't ever have to be registered to you. I thought everyone in the trade knew that secret. I'm surprised DVLA haven't sussed this little wrinkle yet!

[gwc1000]

To be with in the law ? and would i buy a car off a man like you i think not We can all do ilegal things but then thats why true car dealers get a bad name Would you also cover a mate whos cars not insured ? i dont abuse my traders policy for anyone

 

Please read my posts before you attack me. I said in an earlier post that I refuse to do it. I just said that it's possible to tax a vehicle without registering it, and a lot of traders do it, and I don't agree with it. My business is run completely within the law, this year I have sold in excess of 600 vehicles and have been operating for nearly thirty years and can assure you I don't have a bad name, but thanks for your concern. Who mentioned anything about insuring a mate? Considering the amount of money insurance costs me per annum I take absoloutley no chances with insurance.

[gwc1000]

If a dealer (any dealer) supplies a vehicle to a customer who then drives it on a public highway when is either unroadworthy, untaxed or uninsured they are as guilty of commiting that offence as the purchaser/driver.

Do you mean ethically or as a point of law? Are you suggesting that when I send vehicles to auction without any documentation at all that if the purchaser chooses to drive the vehicle out of the sale yard on the public highway I and/or the auction company are committing an offence? There is no legislation that insists that I have to ensure a customer is insured before they remove a car from my premises. Also what about private sales? If it is an offence to sell an untaxed or no Motd vehicle that the purchaser drives off in on the highway would you say a private individual is guilty of an offence when selling an untaxed or no MoTd vehicle that the purchaser drives home in?

[gwc1000]

Ok this is not an attack on anyone

 

Selling a car without a valid V5 is unlawful.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I buy many vehicles from auction without a V5. In fact I have collected one today from BCA Bedford. I will fill out a V62 obtainable from your post office. On it it says:

 

You should use this form to obtain a Vehicle Registration

Certificate (V5C) if the original has been lost, stolen, defaced or

destroyed, or you have recently acquired the vehicle but did not

receive the V5C

 

If it was unlawful why would it say on the V62: or you have recently acquired the vehicle but did not

receive the V5C ?

I have never had any trouble obtaining a V5 after purchasing a vehicle without one.

I admit DVLA did start running adverts on the tv around about 2002 saying a car isn't legit without a logbook. But they soon dropped that when it was obvious that it wouldn't work.

[gwc1000]

sorry if you felt attacked was not meant like that

No problem. No offence taken.

[gwc1000]

What colour do U what??...

...I MAY know someone that could help U out?!...

 

NO V5 though......+ possibly slight damage to one of the doors/ignition.

 

I could negotiate a small discount for U, if U're interested enough??...

 

 

...lol...

 

Is that the model with keyless go?

[gwc1000]

 

 

 

not being able to get one in time is not relevant. How do you and your buyer fill out the tear off slips if you don't have one?

 

You don't have to sign the tear off slips. It will not prevent the new owner getting a new reg doc. He takes the car and fills out a V62 and a new V5 comes to him in the post.

[gwc1000]

Yes fraid you don't

 

If a dealer allows a buyer to drive on the public highway with an unroadworthy or unlicenced vehicle that he has sold he commits the offence of conspiracy

 

If the buyer is in an accident caused by that unroadworhyness or is indeed uninsured at the time of leaving the dealer and collides with another they are also guilty of not only the criminal offence of conspiracy but are also liable in civil law for any loss or damage caused by that buyer.

 

Sorry, I disagree. Who is the trader conspiring with? Conspiracy is a very serious issue so please back up these comments with relevant case law.

 

When I sell vehicles there is no legal requirement on me to check whether the purchaser is insured or even has a driving licence. Remember, it is no longer my property and the owner is free to do what he likes with it. If you don't agree please quote relevant law.

[gwc1000]

Statutory conspiracy is defined by section 1 of the criminal law act 1977

Under section 1(1) if a person agrees with any other person or persons that a course of conduct shall be pursued which, if the agreement is carried out in accordance with their

intentions, either -

(a) will necessarily amount to or involve the commission of any offence or offences by one or more of the parties to the agreement, or

(b) would do so but for the existence of facts which render the commission of the offence or any of the offences impossible,

He is guilty of conspiracy to commit the offence or offences in question.

Accordingly, it is an offence to agree to commit any criminal offence even one which is tryable only summarily. However, by section 4 a conspiracy to commit a summary only offence can only be prosecuted by or with the consent of the director of public prosecutions.

[gwc1000]

 

gwc1000 - Given that you sell over 600 vehicles a year I would class you as an established and reputable car dealer. If you were of the "Arthur Daly" type and selling "dodgy motors" then it is likely to be a means to an end

 

I just like being able to sleep peacefully at night.

 

JonCris:

Even if it were possible to prosecute a conspiracy case (which I feel would be impossible) the prosecution would not be exclusive to motor traders. It would apply to everyone.

[gwc1000]

Hypothetically speaking of course, would 600 'Cut + Shunt' motors NOT add up to ONLY 300 (...max!) dodgey sales??...

 

 

Hmmmm

[gwc1000]

Quantity does NOT equate to Quality!

 

Correction: Quantity does NOT equate to profits. I now earn less than half that I earned in the late eighties and early nineties.

[gwc1000]

We have car dealers on here admitting that they would allow a purchaser to 'knowingly' drive off in an unroadworthy or unlicenced vehicle.

 

Where in any of my posts did I say I was willing to sell an unroadworthy vehicle? I never mentioned anything about unroadworthy cars. I agree as a trader I am committing an offence if I sell an unroadworthy car. In fact I am even committing an offence even if I were just to display a car with a bald tyre for sale. The point I am making is if after I have taken the money for a roadworthy car the property is the purchaser's and I cannot be held liable for what he does with it. Otherwise, when does my responsibility end? In an hour, tomorrow or next week or even next year? But as I questioned earlier, why would an offence only be restricted to a sale from a trader? Are you saying if you yourself sold a vehicle that had no RFL you are exempt? Road tax laws apply to us all.

You also have not answered my points about your assertion that I would be guilty of conspiracy. A conspiracy has to be two or more. Perhaps people who buy cars should take responsibility for their own actions.

[gwc1000]

At least 2 dealers (if memory of earlier posts is correct).

Well, I think your memory serves you incorrectly. I haven't seen any motor trader post that he is willing to sell an unroadworthy vehicle.

 

I find these comments insinuating it is unthinkable that a trader would sell a vehicle without a current RFL an attempt to win an argument by slurring the other party as opposed to putting forward concrete evidence. It isn't unlawful.

If you yourself went to a Motor Car Auction today and purchased a vehicle which had no V5, MoT or tax, the auction company would NOT enquire if you had insurance or how you intended to move the vehicle. The onus is on you. I can assure you British Car Auctions have their own legal team and they operate strictly within the law. Checking their stock list today they are holding 12,982 vehicles for sale and I don't think they would take the risk of thousands of Court cases.

As I invited earlier, if you could quote any case law,please post it.

[gwc1000]

 

I certainly would not buy any car from a dealer who did not insist on MOT/Tax/Insurance as I would seriously wonder about the state of the car itself.

 

So, if a customer of mine himself chooses to break the law by driving an untaxed vehicle, my cars must be rubbish? I am at fault, not him? I give up.

[gwc1000]

You may not in so many words be saying that you sell unroadworthy vehicles but you have implied you will as you state that once the money is taken the vehicle is the buyers responsibility to do with what they which.

 

Also any insurer will class an unlicenced vehicle as unroadworthy even if there are no actual mechanical defaults & as a consquence will only pay for 3rd party damage

 

If you don't think you have a 'duty of care' after releasing a sold vehicle, you know at the time, is unlicened or uninsured then I'm afraid one day your in for a shock when things go wrong for your recent purchaser who has an accident not long after leaving your premises

 

Or worse gets his very recent purchase snatched & crushed by the police.

 

If in doubt and intend to continue to act as you have indicated I strongly suggest your consult your solicitor

 

At no point have I implied I am willing to sell an unroadworthy vehicle. You said it not me. All of my cars are checked thoroughly (including those I send to auction) so I have no worries there. So, now (according to you) an untaxed car is unroadworthy? So anybody driving an untaxed car could be prosecuted for using an unroadworthy vehicle? Worse still if it is one of mine I could be prosecuted not only for an unroadworthy car but also go to prison for conspiracy for conspiring with myself?

I see you have totally ignored my comments about BCA, are you suggesting they are guilty of selling thousands of unroadworthy vehicles each week? Please reply. I also note you have gone particularly quiet about your view I am guilty of conspiracy. Could you please post your legal reasoning for the conspiracy charge?

I suggest you consult a solicitor, so you might start to understand where you are going wrong.

[gwc1000]

I did not say your cars are rubbish, what I was saying is that your service to me and other roadusers is sub-standard to what I have encountered before (ie you are stating you are unconcerned with tax/insurance) so I would be wary over your attention to the cars for sale, which ultimately would lose you a sale. Also as a customer, I would expect a valid MOT to come with the car.

 

Oh, dear. I feel you are missing my point. I AM concerned about tax and insurance, which is why more often than not I will not tax a vehicle for a customer using my insurance if I feel that he will not eventually insure the vehicle himself. I try to get all customers to have the vehicle taxed before they take the car, and 99% of the time they do. But the point I am making is, it is not illegal for me to sell an untaxed vehicle. If you feel otherwise then please post relevent case law.

[gwc1000]

You are clearly stating above that you will let an uninsured vehicle on the road, which is a disregard to innocent roadusers.

No, I am not. If I refuse to tax a car for someone (normally because I have formed an opinion of him/her and the likelihood of them actually getting insurance ) normally what happens they go and get the relevant paperwork and tax it themselves then collect the car. That way I know that the car is insured. But, I keep coming back to this, I am not legally obliged to ensure a customer has insurance. Ethically possibly, legally no. Consider this, I have a taxed vehicle for sale, full mot. somebody comes in off the street and buys it and wants to drive it away telling me they are covered by their insurance, should I stop them?

And as for being guilty of conspiracy, hmmmm.

[gwc1000]

gwc1000...

 

Out of curiosity (...whilst also trying to drag the Thread back ON Topic),

how often/many cars would U sell to 'Mr Average Joe Public' on an average late Sat afternoon, when U KNEW it would be extremely difficult for them to be able to Tax the vehicle that U were selling them??...

 

Do U have a cut-off time, for instance??...

Yes please let's get back on topic. As I stated in an earlier post we have a post office within four miles of us who is open Monday to Saturday until 6pm. and does road tax. I have driven many people there on a Saturday afternoon to get road tax. More often than not the vehicle isn't taken on the day of sale anyway.

Anyway back to the OP's question: No you shouldn't have driven it!

[gwc1000]

MTAR...

 

I am NOT being pedantic!

My question was for gwc1000 anyway btw.

 

I just find it extremely strange, that both U + he seem to think that it's quite normal + ok to 'PURCHASE' a car one day, then take the car away on another day??...

 

My questions related to the legality of ownership/insurance liability, should anything untoward happen to said vehicle in the interim 'grey' period...

Well, normally the customer has only left a deposit, so should something happen to the car in the meantime, for instance be stolen, I would return the deposit and either try and sell them something else or if nothing took their fancy I would accept that I have lost them. I would then make a claim on my own insurance. If the car has been paid for outright, and it was stolen from my premises, morally I would still feel liable and give them a complete refund and make a claim. Obviously when making a claim on a trader's policy you would only normally get a "trade value" on the car.

Remember, when buying a car or for that matter anything at auction the item becomes your responsibility as soon as the hammer falls. The auction will take no responsibility after the hammer comes down. So if say you buy a house at auction at 1pm and it gets burgled or vandalised at 1.15pm it is down to you.